19-3 ??Factory?? engraved with gold inlay??? (UPDATE W/ PICS)

[dacoontz]

Came across what looked to be a factory engraved 19-3 with a 6 inch barrel and in 357 magnum. The serial number was 2k12. Supposively with a walnut presentation case with no liner and grips look like replacements as they are nothing special, just typical target grips from a later period.

It did have some gold inlay around the large S&W stamping on the side plate and in the "smith & wesson" on the barrel. The engraving is very good and the side plate screws are also engraved. It had a very large "3" stamped on the grip frame under the left panel. The part number on the frame matched to the one on the crane, but no serial number on the barrel or cylinder, bad sign?

Any ideas on how to tell if the engraving is factory. Was there anything stamped on the frame under the grips to signify that? There was some very small, lightly stamped letters on the side plate under where the target grips would cover the frame. I couldn't make out the letters but that section was left non-engraved. Opinions on authenticity and value for a 97% engraved pistol? Thanks all.

Here's some pics. Any additional opinions on the engraving and whether it is factory or not are welcome:

I did purchase the gun for an outstanding price, I feel. The seller, a first rate class act guy, told me that if I found out it was not factory engraved that he would return my money if I still wasn't happy with it. So I basically had nothing to lose.

LATEST: I have returned it and if someone is interested in it then let me know and I can get them the sellers info. Got a link from member jrs70 about an engraver named Angelo Bee which would explain the ABEE stamped on the frame.

 

[Art Doc]

Is the logo on the left side of frame or on the right on the side plate? I think factory engraved guns usually have the logo moved to the left.

Also, ANYBODY who owns a factory engraved and inlaid S&W will certainly have the letter to document its originality. A gun valued at thousands of dollars is worth the cost of the letter. I automatically assume any rare or engraved gun that does not have a letter with it to be not factory produced.

 

[Doc44]

Daniel...most likely engraved after being shipped as a plain revolver. It may have been returned to S&W and engraved, or done outside of the factory (probably the latter, but no way to know for sure). The stampings you describe are normal for a 1970/71 Model 19-3. The gold around the logo and on the barrel may be gold fill, but its hard to say for sure without seeing it.

Bill

 

[1 old 0311]

Is the logo on the left side of frame or on the right on the side plate? I think factory engraved guns usually have the logo moved to the left.

Also, ANYBODY who owns a factory engraved and inlaid S&W will certainly have the letter to document its originality. A gun valued at thousands of dollars is worth the cost of the letter. I automatically assume any rare or engraved gun that does not have a letter with it to be not factory produced.

+1 I was recently offered a engraved nickel 19-4 with NO letter. All I was willing to offer was 19-3 prices not engraved prices. He declined.

 

[Camster]

Is the logo on the left side of frame or on the right on the side plate? I think factory engraved guns usually have the logo moved to the left.

Also, ANYBODY who owns a factory engraved and inlaid S&W will certainly have the letter to document its originality. A gun valued at thousands of dollars is worth the cost of the letter. I automatically assume any rare or engraved gun that does not have a letter with it to be not factory produced.

What he said.
A lot of aftermarket engravers will engrave the full frame,not just to the grip outline,as the factory usually does.

 

[dacoontz]

Thanks for the info guys. The logo was of the large variety and on the right side, on the side plate. I gave it some serious thought but didn't want to spend the money on something that wasn't factory.

 

[dacoontz]

Update with PICS.

 

[Doc44]

Daniel...Nice looking 19-3. I am sure it was done outside of S&W and refinished after the engraving. The barrel and cylinder are a plum color that is often a sign of refinishing. Also, the red ramp in most likely a replacement for the original Patridge blade.

I don't know what the significance of the ABEE stamping is.

Bill

 

[dacoontz]

Bill, thanks for the info. I appreciate the reply and expertise. Maybe I'll put it up for sale here on the forum to see if someone would like it for their collection. Daniel.

 

[Dpris]

It doesn't look quite factory-grade to me.
Hopefully you can sell it to somebody who'll like it for its visual appeal.
Denis

 

[tramp7810]

19-3

how much u need

 

[chud333]

Thanks for the info guys. The logo was of the large variety and on the right side, on the side plate. I gave it some serious thought but didn't want to spend the money on something that wasn't factory.

Never understood this. If it's nice and done well, why not? Just because it was engraved at a factory does'nt mean it was done any better than anywhere else. I would rather have a good engraving job done by a competent/skilled engraver. Who's to say the "factory" guy is not some apprentise hack, compared to a gentleman who has been practised in his trade for many years. Just a thought....

 

[dacoontz]

Never understood this. If it's nice and done well, why not? Just because it was engraved at a factory does'nt mean it was done any better than anywhere else. I would rather have a good engraving job done by a competent/skilled engraver. Who's to say the "factory" guy is not some apprentise hack, compared to a gentleman who has been practised in his trade for many years. Just a thought....

Chud, I completely agree and the seller and I actually discussed this a bit. I just ended up being out of my league with this one and not feeling 100% after the fact. The gun is very nice but an engraved gun just doesn't fit with what I have been collecting as of late. I had figured that if it was "factory" engraved that it would be too good to pass up as the value amongst S&W collectors does vary based on that fact as unreasonable as that may be. I think the gun will end up with someone that does appreciate the quality of work that the engraver put into it.

 

[dacoontz]

I should add that as I researched some more into Angelo Bee it turns out he was a master factory engraver for Browning. So he was a factory engraver, just not at the S&W factory.

 

[VM]

Daniel - beautiful gun.........it's ashame that so much work was put into the gun and then the reblue turned out a purple color.

 

[Camster]

Angelo Bee was a Browning engraver.His name is associated with a lot of standard grade Browning rifles that were later upgraded to duplicate or exceed the work done on high grade versions of those same guns.He did this work as an independent contractor.
I am very familiar with his name as my first gun interest was the Browning guns of the sixties.

 

[dacoontz]

Daniel - beautiful gun.........it's ashame that so much work was put into the gun and then the reblue turned out a purple color.

This is true but I was thinking about this. Am I wrong or didn't a number of S&W's turn out this way from the factory in the early 70's. I recollect a few 28-2's that turned out like this from the factory around the same 4 to 6 year period. I don't doubt what others have said but just made me think a little about that. I think the gun shows other signs of refinish with the bit of rub marks on that last pic where the "ABEE" is located. I can't imagine seeing that on an original finish gun. I have read that sometimes engravers sanded finishes after engraving. I am guessing that was maybe to smooth out the scratches and remove any burr's???

 

[2152hq]

Angelo was still engraving last I knew, though maybe not at the clip he used to.
Some health issues as age catches up to us all. Always a free-lanse engraver since the FN days AFAIK. Fast worker as you'd expect a European factory trained engraver to be. That work ethic has stuck through out his career.

He left FN in the mid or late 60's. Gino Cargnel was another FN engraver to leave and come to the US at the time. Gino died 10 or 11 years ago.

He used the ABEE signage at FN, hand cut into the game scene or the corner or the frame.
A tiny stamp used to make the same mark like the posted revolver on his freelanse work in the US.
Also uses an 'A' followed by a bumblebee caricature. As equaly small as the ABEE stamp, it's usually hand cut.

At least one xwife (Denise Therion) and a sister (Rosa Bee) are excellent engravers themselves.
Some of the ABEE labled work is often thought to be Denise's cutting when she was married to Angelo.

Nice looking work and a typical of a 'Belgian Style' scroll that he is very comfortable cutting. As would any of those that learned from and/or worked with him.

The purple tone of the (re)bluing on the cylinder is common and also occurs on the bbl as well. Heat treatment differences between those parts and the frame can cause it along with other variables. But someone who knows the hot salt blu trade can usually avoid them on most guns.
This one could be easily reblued after stripping the existing blue w/chemicles. No polishing is needed with some of them. There are ways to 'brighten up' the steel if needed w/o harming the existing engraving.

Nice inlay work, a combination of flat and relief work and what looks like a couple of different karat golds.

You try to avoid polishing after the engraving but there almost always a few burrs that need to be leveled.
In a perfect world, no post engraving polishing is needed.
But there is usually some attention needed especially with an extensive coverage and work done with hammer & chisel as this one is.

How aggresively you go after them to take care of it, as well as how you do it can make a big difference in the final effect.

 

[chud333]

I should add that as I researched some more into Angelo Bee it turns out he was a master factory engraver for Browning. So he was a factory engraver, just not at the S&W factory.

Daniel, Understood completely. I'm not a collector of engraved guns either as most are out of my price range. I figure i can get 3 shooters to 1 engraved gun so what's the point. But the engraving looked good to my un-trained eye. I agree the re-blue is a purplish color and that would have turned me.

 

[tramp7810]

19-3

how much would u be askin

 

[dacoontz]

2152hq,
Outstanding information. I appreciate the further insight. Wisdon like yours is what makes this forum what it is. Thank you.
I think it is interesting you mention Denise Thirion because she is listed in the standard catalog as a factory engraver. It would be interesting to find out if she did do some work on this gun because then you could really start the argument of whether it is factory engraved or not. Of course I imagine that comes back to where it was engraved and I know this gun has a southern California history so I would assume it was engraved at Angelos work shop in Cali. The bluing on it as well still comes back into the equation as well.
I may try and call the number listed on Angelo's website to see if someone there has any recollection of the engraving. I imagine he has worked on thousands of guns but maybe he keeps a record of his work.

 

[45Wheelgun]

I may try and call the number listed on Angelo's website to see if someone there has any recollection of the engraving. I imagine he has worked on thousands of guns but maybe he keeps a record of his work.

I had a gun that I was told was engraved by Denise and I was able to contact her. I sent her some photographs of the gun and she knew right away that it wasn't her work. Even if you don't have records, I am sure you would recognize your own work, she did.

Denise Therion is a real classy lady. Sent me a very nice letter (letting me down kindly) along with a written history of her with photos and examples of her work. She worked at the FN factory engraving grade I superposed shotguns. Met and married Angelo while they worked together at the factory. They moved to American together.

 

[Walthernut]

Regardless of who or where it was engraved I like it. Very classy.

 

[Trees]

Engraver with initials ABEE

Hi, Just came across these postings and had information on the engraver ABEE. It stands for Master Engravers work by Angelo Bee. You can find some of his work on line on S&W Revolvers.