1905 1st change

[Kyle M.mi]

Hello all I just picked up a S&W 1905 with a 5" barrel for $350, the bluing is pretty worn but the bore is nearly perfect, and the grips are also nearly perfect with no scratches, chips, or cracks. The gun was advertised as a 1st change but I haven't found much definitive information on the internet on how to determine whether it's actually a first change or another variation. The serial # is 78xxx, and is on the butt, the inside of the right grip panel, and the cylinder. The inside of the frame and the crane are numbered 8822, and the last patent date on the barrel is July 07 1903. If this is a first change I understand it was made betweent 1906-1908, any further insight as to possible production date or whether it is a first, second, or later variation? Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[DWalt]

In .38 Special it would indeed be a Model of 1905, first change. That's if it has a square butt. Those with round butts were called the Model of 1902 at that time. 1907 would be a good date. SNs of the various models and changes are well-known. However, dating based on SN alone is not so precise, as S&W did not ship in SN order. It requires a factory letter to determine an exact shipping date.
-----------------
On the same topic of "changes," S&W did not indicate or use such "changes" in its advertising or anywhere else. As is typical for many manufactured items, various improvements were occasionally made, and production thereafter continued with the changes in place. The whole "change" thing is a creation of collectors in the 1930s to indicate significant differences in mechanical design. S&W dropped the use of the "Model of 19xx" nomenclature prior to WWI, and just called them the Military and Police (M&P) Model, either round or square butt. Some collectors continue to use the Model of 1905 fourth change nomenclature for all M&Ps made up until 1945, as there were virtually no significant design changes made in the M&P from 1915 to 1945.

 

[Kyle M.mi]

In .38 Special it would indeed be a Model of 1905, first change. That's if it has a square butt. Those with round butts were called the Model of 1902. 1907 would be a good date. SNs of the various models and changes are well-known. However, dating based on SN alone is not so precise, as S&W did not ship in SN order. It requires a factory letter to determine an exact shipping date.

Yes it is .38 special, sorry I left that out, also marked U.S. service cartridges which I understand to be the .38 long colt. It is definately a round butt though. I do intend to get a factory letter, and will probably print the forum out later tonight.

 

[DWalt]

Yes it is .38 special sorry I left that out, also marked U.S. service cartridges which I understand to be the .38 long colt. It is definately a round butt though, so I guess a hand ejector model 1902? I definately intend to get a factory letter, and will probably print the forum out later tonight.

See my addendum above. S&W would have called yours the ".38 Hand Ejector, Model of 1902 Military Revolver." A collector might call yours a "Model of 1902, second change." That's because the Model of 1902 had a several year head start in production, and was into its second change, while the Model of 1905 was into only its first change. Does that make sense? It probably doesn't. There is definitely a difference between what S&W would have called it bak then vs. what a collector would call it now. Don't be surprised if you get a factory letter calling yours a Model of 1905, first change.

 

[tlay]

If it is marked U.S. Service CTG it is 38 special only and not 38 long colt. Although there was a 38 long colt it was for the Navy marked guns which were in the model of 1902 no change. I don't believe the Navy guns are in the first change.

 

[Kyle M.mi]

If it is marked U.S. Service CTG it is 38 special only and not 38 long colt. Although there was a 38 long colt it was for the Navy marked guns which were in the model of 1902 no change. I don't believe the Navy guns are in the first change.

The exact markings on the barrel read ".38 S&W Special & U.S. Service Cartridges", I had read elsewhere that the U.S. service cartridge marking denoted .38 long colt, though that source could be mistaken. I've seen Colt DA revolvers in .38 long colt but not any S&W's. Though I imagine it would work in a .38 special chambered gun considering it's a shorter, weaker round. Either way mine with only see the occasional cylinder full of light loaded .38 special 158gr. semi-wadcutters. I bought it mainly as a collectors/conversation piece, and just to have a gun that old around.

 

[Buford57]

The .38 Long Colt is to the .38 Special as the .38 Special is to the .357 Magnum, and the .38 Long Colt was the U.S. Service Cartridge until the .45 ACP replaced it in 1911.

If you happened to come into some .38 Long Colt at a bargain price, you could use it in your S&W without any problem. The same is NOT true of .38 S&W. The wonderful world of cartridge nomenclature.

 

[Mike McLellan]

I'm a little puzzled here. Are you sure that the latest patent date is July 7, 1903? That date did not (as far as I know) appear on any K frames. The patent protected an improved hand, which didn't apply to the 1905 series (regardless of butt shape!). It appeared on the 32 Hand Ejector of 1903. The serial number suggests a 2nd change (1906-1909).

I shudder to think of how many times I've been wrong, and this could certainly be one more of many. Post some pictures if you can

 

[DWalt]

"If it is marked U.S. Service CTG it is 38 special only and not 38 long colt. Although there was a 38 long colt it was for the Navy marked guns which were in the model of 1902 no change. I don't believe the Navy guns are in the first change."

Sorry, the "U. S. Service Cartridge" refers to the .38 Long Colt. That was the official U. S. Military revolver cartridge for all U. S. services from the early 1890s until the .45 ACP was adopted in 1911. It is slightly shorter and less powerful than the .38 Special cartridge which was not an official U. S. Military cartridge until WWII. The barrel marking simply indicates that both can be used in the revolver. The .38 LC is generally obsolete, but components are available and it is offered by some specialty loaders for those few early revolvers that cannot chamber the longer .38 Special cartridge.

 

[Kyle M.mi]

I'm a little puzzled here. Are you sure that the latest patent date is July 7, 1903? That date did not (as far as I know) appear on any K frames. The patent protected an improved hand, which didn't apply to the 1905 series (regardless of butt shape!). It appeared on the 32 Hand Ejector of 1903. The serial number suggests a 2nd change (1906-1909).

I shudder to think of how many times I've been wrong, and this could certainly be one more of many. Post some pictures if you can

I'll double check that patent date when I get home, but I'm pretty sure it is July 07, 1903.

 

[Kyle M.mi]

I got sidetracked for the past couple weeks with all the casting,loading, and shooting I've been doing, and just got back to this thread. The last patent date on the barrel is definately July 7, 1903, also there is no locator dowel in the ejector star, the ejector rods knurled tip is threaded on not 1 piece, and there is a boss on the back of the rebound slide with a matching key way in the frame. All of these these seem to indicate a first change from what I've been able to find. I've already got the paper filled out and will be sending in my request for a factory letter later this week. Not that it will necessarily help but here's a couple of pics of the gun. If anyone wanted to know both targets were shot offhand at 10 yards with a 158gr LSWC, I cast from a lee 6 cavity mold, sized at .358, over 3.0grs of Bullseye.