1911 flat mainspring housing-What have I got. UPDATE
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Parkerized?
AJ
US Veteran
Have one like it. Will watch this thread with interest.
Rpg
Member
Looks like the way I always have my gunsmith modify 1911 mainspring housings: grind it flat (remove arch) and aggressive checkering.
It's a bit tough on over garments (eg suit jacket).
It's a bit tough on over garments (eg suit jacket).
OP
4barrel
Member
I cant find any with these stamps. It hasn't got any dings. I probably bought it at a gun show in the '80's. Took a few more photos. AJ in post 3 said he had one. It's hard to count to 39 without blinking. I had to take a photo and blow it up.
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Looks like a late type 5 Remington 1911-A1 that someone cut across the 8 original " ribs". The other original checked MSHs were at an angle, diamond shaped.
AJ
US Veteran
I find I must apologize as mine is not exactly like yours. Mine has more of a diamond pattern to it. It does have a lanyard loop on it. No further marking I can find. Please see the thumbnail.
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krunchnik
Member
Kimber makes one like that-
Ivan the Butcher
Member
4Barrel, I believe your Mainspring housing is from an Argentine 1927 (probably post WWII). That is their designation for what we call the 1911 series. I have a number of their designs I picked up in the 80's and 90's when I bought every cheap/abused 1911 I could and then built or rebuilt functioning AFFORDABLE self-defense 1911's. Most of the early guns were Colt built and marked. Post WWII, they bought leftover parts and then made whatever else they needed.
Ivan
Ivan
OP
4barrel
Member
OP
4barrel
Member
Thanks but again-Show me at least a photo without guessing. I read and enjoy almost all of your posts.
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OP
4barrel
Member
I looked that up- and looks nothing like it from the side. Thanks. Enjoy your posts also. The #5 is flat--mine's oval -not flat or arched.
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N M-National Match?
OP
4barrel
Member
If I stamped it -it would be in the middle.
I haven't found any stamped NM on the internet. I like all your posts. Dig some books out and help me out. I am putting an old 70 series Colt Bullseye gun together <Like I need another> and don't like much. I have been gathering parts when I can find them for years. I have it shooting great and I will post a photo of the finished product. I just need a few cosmetic touch ups. I was checking my 40 year old stash bin and this was in it. I probably bought it because of 23 stamped on it. <My birthday>and my serial #on the gun starts with 23. The old gun shows had tons of 1911 parts you could buy for a song. I probably didn't give $10 for it.
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Back in the early 1980's, I had a commercial Colt Government Model 1911A1 pattern that was made in 1928 and a nice early "Systema Colt" Argentine made 1911A1 pattern.
All the small parts with the checkering on them were identical
Other than the markings and the distinctive Argentine serial numbers on the slide, barrel, frame, and magazine, and the grips, there was no difference in the appearance and machining of the two.
I disassembled both guns and laid the parts out side by side, if they had somehow ever got mixed up, there would be no way I could tell which was made in the U.S. and which was made in Argentina.
The Argentine Systema's are great guns, made with top quality materials on original Colt tooling in a factory set up by Colt.
I seem to vaguely remember early Detonics pistols having a flat checkered mainspring housing with a kind of unique look. Never had one out of the gun, so don't know anything about any markings, or lack there-of, on the part.
Federal Ordnance and Essex Arms also made a lot of different configuration .45 auto pistols and parts in this time period, and Essex made the frames for Detonics.
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OP
4barrel
Member
Thank you Marcus--I have a really nice Federal Ordnance <even has a pony like Colt>Made in California and several Essex that are top of the line and worth at least $400 . Fred Kart used Essex frames with a lot of his builds. I am going to see if I can find Argentine parts. I found a photo of a 1918 Colt that was close and Ivan the butcher suggested 1927. I feel like COLUMBO solving a case<gettin close>
Fred Kart used Essex frames with a lot of his builds. I am going to see if I can find Argentine parts. I found a photo of a 1918 Colt that was close and Ivan the butcher suggested 1927. I feel like COLUMBO solving a case<gettin close>Attachments
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K, see its flat, didn't catch that as first pics don't show side .
Here's GI ones.
Here's GI ones.
OP
4barrel
Member
Thanks but not even close. 8 down and 39 across is what I have. Looking at type #5 if it was cut sideways would be close. #4 has the rib in the middle. Mine has a channel in the middle like #5. Mine is raised <rounded> in the middle and #5 looks flat. Actually--mine is not flat or arched.
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Could be any one of dozens and dozens of after market parts makers/suppliers in the 1970'/80's time that suddenly appeared on the market.
.45Auto / build your own gun craze was exploding and people wanted bolt on custom parts.
Things haven't really changed much.
The NM stamped on the part could simply have been a makers feeble attempt to steer the buyer into thinking it was the same as a more expensive real Natl Match part.
Maybe it is NM part!
A lot of that early stuff was investement cast. It would still show machining to clean it up.
The main advantage on a small part like this one would have been to cast in the checkering. A close examination can reveal which it is.
How many Lines per Inch (LPI) is the checkering?
Many/Most established parts from Natl Match and other well known makers were made in standard LPI's of 25, 30, etc .
Though custom made was and is just that. Most anything could and still can be ordered and made.
....and it could just be an old arched housing that someone reshaped to flat to fit the frame correctly,,and then checkered it.
There's some pretty spiffy work done out there in gun-land.
.45Auto / build your own gun craze was exploding and people wanted bolt on custom parts.
Things haven't really changed much.
The NM stamped on the part could simply have been a makers feeble attempt to steer the buyer into thinking it was the same as a more expensive real Natl Match part.
Maybe it is NM part!
A lot of that early stuff was investement cast. It would still show machining to clean it up.
The main advantage on a small part like this one would have been to cast in the checkering. A close examination can reveal which it is.
How many Lines per Inch (LPI) is the checkering?
Many/Most established parts from Natl Match and other well known makers were made in standard LPI's of 25, 30, etc .
Though custom made was and is just that. Most anything could and still can be ordered and made.
....and it could just be an old arched housing that someone reshaped to flat to fit the frame correctly,,and then checkered it.
There's some pretty spiffy work done out there in gun-land.
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Also could be one of Many after market parts made years and years ago. Wilson , Clark, Swenson and many other made assorted parts for 1911s.
JJEH
Member
My "know-it-all" book doesn't show any info on this MSH. Perhaps a "DIY" or made on request?!
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OP
4barrel
Member
I looked at those also and all were arched but I couldn't see the back. Thanks for the close up. That one looks like it has seen some action.Not off a 1927 Argentine...
OP
4barrel
Member
Thanks but mine is rounded-not flat. You know--A personal mark on a mainspring housing would be a way to id a gun if it were stolen and easy to do. Anyone would think it was a factory mark. Just take a photo and keep on file. Just because my name is Nancy Merritt doesn't mean I stamped it.
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may help...or add more confusion
The GI chart posted by Greyman50 looks like the chart from my old "take to every gun show & estate auction" reference book "U.S. Pistols & Revolvers 1909-1945" J.C. Harrison back in the 90's when I was actively chasing, buying and selling 1911/1911A1's.
I agree that yours doesn't quite fit any category of the basic GI MSH, but both the "23" and the "NM" were stamped before finishing as noted by lack of "angel halo" in the stamps or surrounding finish.
As Harrison notes: for BOTH the early Argentine Colt, Model of 1914, 1916 & 1919...as well as WWII 1911A1's ... major components had partial serial numbers stamped as well as frame , receiver, etc. These were US Model 1911 guns ordered directly from Colt and the finish was Colt's military brushed blue.
Also Harrison notes that the U.S. Army National Match, as produced by Springfield Armory 1954 to 1967 utilized newer model parts such as hard slides, NM barrels, adjustable sights NM Aluminum Triggers, flat mainspring housings, etc.
Your MSH may be one of these additions by Springfield Armory who would also be parkerizing after their machining work.
Who knows??.............The mystery continues
The GI chart posted by Greyman50 looks like the chart from my old "take to every gun show & estate auction" reference book "U.S. Pistols & Revolvers 1909-1945" J.C. Harrison back in the 90's when I was actively chasing, buying and selling 1911/1911A1's.
I agree that yours doesn't quite fit any category of the basic GI MSH, but both the "23" and the "NM" were stamped before finishing as noted by lack of "angel halo" in the stamps or surrounding finish.
As Harrison notes: for BOTH the early Argentine Colt, Model of 1914, 1916 & 1919...as well as WWII 1911A1's ... major components had partial serial numbers stamped as well as frame , receiver, etc. These were US Model 1911 guns ordered directly from Colt and the finish was Colt's military brushed blue.
Also Harrison notes that the U.S. Army National Match, as produced by Springfield Armory 1954 to 1967 utilized newer model parts such as hard slides, NM barrels, adjustable sights NM Aluminum Triggers, flat mainspring housings, etc.
Your MSH may be one of these additions by Springfield Armory who would also be parkerizing after their machining work.
Who knows??.............The mystery continues
OP
4barrel
Member
I LAUGHED at your first paragraph Well-cmansguns--With the <23> stamped on it -J.M. Browning's birthday-maybe it was his. Thank you a lot for that info. Interesting. I am very glad to know it was finished after the stamps. I did find a bad photo on the net of a Springfield and it kind of looks the same. It gets fuzzy when I try to blow it up. I can count the 39 down but the across blurs out. I can count 4 about half way. This may be it but the site has no info. It showed up under Springfield. One fo the sites was protected an couldn't down load a photo. You may have nailed it. You win the <Needle in a haystack> award. Thanks for the trouble. SPRINGFIELD on the left -mine on the right
Well-cmansguns--With the <23> stamped on it -J.M. Browning's birthday-maybe it was his. Thank you a lot for that info. Interesting. I am very glad to know it was finished after the stamps. I did find a bad photo on the net of a Springfield and it kind of looks the same. It gets fuzzy when I try to blow it up. I can count the 39 down but the across blurs out. I can count 4 about half way. This may be it but the site has no info. It showed up under Springfield. One fo the sites was protected an couldn't down load a photo. You may have nailed it. You win the <Needle in a haystack> award. Thanks for the trouble. SPRINGFIELD on the left -mine on the rightAttachments
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Something else perhaps of passing interest, since we are talking 1911 type pistols here..
Back in the early 1980's, I picked up a very early Llama .45 auto 1911A1 style pistol at a gunshow.
It was a smooth, well built pistol, that when compared with my Colt
.45 Gold Cup, was obviously based on the Colt pistol.
Later Llamas became very crudely made and sloppy as the company sought to sell more pistols at much lower prices by cutting corners on the machining and finishing....I later also picked up one of these guns, and had to spend about 20 minutes working it over with my jewelers fine files to knock all the sharp edges off and get it to run right.
Anyhow, this Gold Cup style Llama differed mainly from the Colt, as I remember (it's been 40 years) , in the size and configuration of the grips - the Llama grips were larger and the spacing of the grip screw holes was different. And a Colt slide wouldn't fit on the Llama frame, and vice-versa. I don't remember if the barrels were interchangable, but I'm thinking they weren't
Anyhow, I had a surprise waiting for me the first time I fired the gun - it went full, uncontollable, auto!
Upon disassembly, it was revealed that someone had done some rather stupid and destructive filing and grinding on the grip safety, hammer, sear, and disconnector. Actually, with the hammer back (and of course no magazine or ammo in it!) if you slapped the gun on the side, the hammer would drop.
A very dangerous, and very illegal situation, to say the least!
Now back then this was not a very common gun and there were no spare replacement parts to be easily had.
However, checking everything out, all the internals and small parts had the same dimensions as those of my Colt pistols, and Colt commercial, military, and aftermarket parts were available at the gunshows.
So I replaced all the moron damaged Llama parts with WW2 military 1911A1 parts, and the gun ran smooth and fine - and legal!
Now I didn't have to replace the mainspring housing on the Llama, and never checked it to see if it would interchange with a Colt or Colt spec item.
Back in the early 1980's, I picked up a very early Llama .45 auto 1911A1 style pistol at a gunshow.
It was a smooth, well built pistol, that when compared with my Colt
.45 Gold Cup, was obviously based on the Colt pistol.
Later Llamas became very crudely made and sloppy as the company sought to sell more pistols at much lower prices by cutting corners on the machining and finishing....I later also picked up one of these guns, and had to spend about 20 minutes working it over with my jewelers fine files to knock all the sharp edges off and get it to run right.
Anyhow, this Gold Cup style Llama differed mainly from the Colt, as I remember (it's been 40 years) , in the size and configuration of the grips - the Llama grips were larger and the spacing of the grip screw holes was different. And a Colt slide wouldn't fit on the Llama frame, and vice-versa. I don't remember if the barrels were interchangable, but I'm thinking they weren't
Anyhow, I had a surprise waiting for me the first time I fired the gun - it went full, uncontollable, auto!
Upon disassembly, it was revealed that someone had done some rather stupid and destructive filing and grinding on the grip safety, hammer, sear, and disconnector. Actually, with the hammer back (and of course no magazine or ammo in it!) if you slapped the gun on the side, the hammer would drop.
A very dangerous, and very illegal situation, to say the least!
Now back then this was not a very common gun and there were no spare replacement parts to be easily had.
However, checking everything out, all the internals and small parts had the same dimensions as those of my Colt pistols, and Colt commercial, military, and aftermarket parts were available at the gunshows.
So I replaced all the moron damaged Llama parts with WW2 military 1911A1 parts, and the gun ran smooth and fine - and legal!
Now I didn't have to replace the mainspring housing on the Llama, and never checked it to see if it would interchange with a Colt or Colt spec item.
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And while we are on the subject of 1911 parts -
I have a set of original WW2 military issue 1911A1 Bakelite grips in very nice condition for sale for $30 shipped if anyone needs or is interested in them.
The left one is a Colt grip and the right one is a Keystone (correct for Remington Rand and Ithaca) and there are some minute differences in the checkering and the size of the flat ring around the screw holes.
But you need to have them side by side and compare them very carefully to notice any difference. Of course, the back sides are also slightly different, as far as the markings and the shape of the 4 indents on the back, but nobody sees that when they are on a gun.
They sure would look nice on something like the Fed Ord pistol or that Argentine in the photos above.
I have a set of original WW2 military issue 1911A1 Bakelite grips in very nice condition for sale for $30 shipped if anyone needs or is interested in them.
The left one is a Colt grip and the right one is a Keystone (correct for Remington Rand and Ithaca) and there are some minute differences in the checkering and the size of the flat ring around the screw holes.
But you need to have them side by side and compare them very carefully to notice any difference. Of course, the back sides are also slightly different, as far as the markings and the shape of the 4 indents on the back, but nobody sees that when they are on a gun.
They sure would look nice on something like the Fed Ord pistol or that Argentine in the photos above.
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