1911 issue in re "condition" of carry

[Darkenfast]

I’m surprised nobody has cited the original primary source i.e., Ordnance Dept. manual No. 1866, page 13. The implied primary carry method is, magazine full and empty-chamber. The emergency carry is cock-and-locked with a full magazine.
Side-note, the manual also issues the “modern” use of trigger-discipline when using the firearm.

Description of the automatic pistol, caliber .45, model of 1911; with rules for management, memoranda of trajectory, and description of ammunition ... April 1, 1912 : United States. Ordanace dept : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Thank you posting that! Now we have the Army's view from 1914. Aside from the method-of-carry info posted above, I noticed a couple of interesting things on a quick read-through: First, the trigger pull was stated as being between 6-7 1/2 pounds. People who criticize trigger weight on some designs (such as issued 1911s and FN's Browning High Power), should remember that heavier trigger pulls were specified by the customer (and for good reasons). My 76C BHP breaks at approximately 6 crisp pounds and I am quite happy with it! Second, the ammunition velocity was stated to be just over 800 fps in the 1911, which tells us just what the Government expected (and what we should expect out of our FMJ ammunition). Third, look at the dispersion and accuracy tables in that manual. If they were using stock guns as examples for the manual, then those early 1911s were accurate, even when fired rapidly.

I am one of those who thinks that the day of the .45 ACP and the 1911 is long done as far as a military purchased and issued weapons system. I also think that the 1911 were hands-down the best handgun of the World War I era and the next few decades.

 

[AJ]

I am one of those who thinks that the day of the .45 ACP and the 1911 is long done as far as a military purchased and issued weapons system. I also think that the 1911 were hands-down the best handgun of the World War I era and the next few decades.

Not so fast..........The M1911 platform is still in the hands of some specialized troops.

Colt M45A1 CQBP: the MARSOC pistol | GUNSweek.com

 

[.357magger]

Not so fast..........The M1911 platform is still in the hands of some specialized troops.

Colt M45A1 CQBP: the MARSOC pistol | GUNSweek.com

The M45a1, adopted for some MARSOC units in 2012 (the article is from 2016) have largely been replaced in service by...I hate to even say it...Glocks.

There's some interesting reading from Military.com that details the troop requests regarding performance in "the Sandbox " and the increased maintenance of the 1911s vs Glocks.

Not saying they're 100% gone, but there don't appear to be many left in service.

(the original USMC M45a1s command a HUGE premium when encountered, enough that fakes are now a problem).

 

[Donn]

I think that a lawyer would have a field day in court if you ever used a pistol in a defensive situation and it came out that you were walking around in public with a cocked pistol.

News flash. A determined prosecutor or defense attorney will come after you, even if your weapon of choice is a single shot, flintlock dueling pistol.

 

[SF VET]

Those of us who CC some version of a 1911 firearm likely carry in Condition 1, ie, draw, flip safety and employ.

But in the military, a sidearm is a secondary weapon, and would most likely be used after the primary weapon was disabled. Excepting of course things like the RVN tunnel rats and the like. So avoiding soldier's accidental discharges, which still happen, there would be time to chamber and employ. AD's and ND's still happen to experienced shooters, and with cleaning and handling of pistols by great numbers of troops it would be safer to have 1911's not chambered.

Of course, once the trooper was issued his sidearm, if no one was checking or caring, I am sure many were chambered. As I posted earlier, I don't recall how I carried my 1911 in RVN. Probably not chambered since I had to clean and oil it so often.

Just some random thoughts before more coffee this morning.

All the best, and stay safe. SF VET

 

[AJ]

I think that a lawyer would have a field day in court if you ever used a pistol in a defensive situation and it came out that you were walking around in public with a cocked pistol.

As stated a determined lawyer will come after you no matter what or how you carried you weapon. That said I have worked with a lot of law enforcement that carried Condition 1. They did not seem to worry about how they carried their issue firearm.

 

[PALADIN85020]

The story is told of a lady addressing a state trooper who had just pulled her car over for a violation. She looked at his holstered cocked and locked 1911 and said "That gun is cocked. Isn't that dangerous?"

The reply from the trooper:

"Damn betcha!"

John

 

[.357magger]

The story is told of a lady addressing a state trooper who had just pulled her car over for a violation. She looked at his holstered cocked and locked 1911 and said "That gun is cocked. Isn't that dangerous?"

The reply from the trooper:

"Damn betcha!"

John

Similar story told about one of the Texas Rangers, one of the Captains (sorry, can't recall the name) who served alongside Frank Hamer in the 30s, who was still using his 1911 (engraved I'd imagine ) many years later when Rangers were reorganized and required to "qualify " with their duty guns.

The young beaurocrat who was running the process noticed his 1911 cocked and locked and asked him if it wasn't dangerous to be carrying that way?

Capt replied, " Sonny, if it wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't be carrying it ".

I read this story IIRC in the biography of Frank Hamer ( which is a GREAT book).

 

[Old Corp]

No military background or experience. Just LE, training and instructing, plus CC Instructor.

In that vein - anything short of Condition 1, dictates that your 'offside' hand is totally healthy and unoccupied so that it will be wholly ready and capable of properly racking the slide to ready the pistol.

Except - Murphy.... who happens to attend many, many bad events.
Your offside hand may be occupied and engaged in sweeping away one of your children, your spouse, be physically engaged in fending off an aggressor.
Just IMHO, it's always been a very big assumption that you'll have the luxury of two ready hands in a critical span of a few seconds to properly work a slide.
And, this is not 1911-centric, this applies to any auto pistol.

All this may be giving JMB a headache in heaven.

 

[ContinentalOp]

All this may be giving JMB a headache in heaven.

I dunno...I kinda think he'd be watching all this while munching on popcorn.

To anyone with Photoshop skills, I think we need a picture of JMB eating popcorn.

 

[Photog]

I think that a lawyer would have a field day in court if you ever used a pistol in a defensive situation and it came out that you were walking around in public with a cocked pistol.

Does this apply to LEO's as well?

 

[ContinentalOp]

I think that a lawyer would have a field day in court if you ever used a pistol in a defensive situation and it came out that you were walking around in public with a cocked pistol.

That's why it's important to be able to articulate your reasoning for that choice and have a lawyer who can effectively defend against such attempts.

 

[OLDSTER]

I'm not a fan of condition 1 carry. The pistol was not designed to be carried that way, and IMO, it's just too dangerous. I don't know if there are any documented cases of a parts failure causing an unintended discharge . However, a pistol is simply a piece of equipment with small parts that need to be in perfect sync. as a group. Small parts can fail, it's as simple as that. in a 1911, the disconnector, sear, hammer, and safety are all under a high load, provided by the mainspring. And any of those parts could fail. I'm a fan of the Detonics pistol. It is designed to be carried in condition 2; the rear sight being moved forward so the thumb has good purchase to cock the hammer as the gun is drawn. Just sayin'

 

[SF VET]

Remember too that in the military, a sidearm is going to be in some sort of retention holster, and that too takes time to make the firearm ready for employment. I suspect when expecting contact, that most would be chambered, allowing one more round in the tube for those making the effort to do so. I also suspect the hammer/safety would be wherever the wearer wanted or left it.

The further one is from HQ the less likely anyone cares. Heck, when I was in SF, we jumped with our weapons slung over our shoulder, while the regular airborne troops jumped with theirs in these big padded cases. Then too, I jumpmastered once at night along the Russian boarder, and whacked the side of the aircraft, and lost my M16. I found it stuck in the ground like a spear, bent, all the plastic shredded off, but at least I had a rifle to turn back in, no one cared about it.

All the best, and stay safe. SF VET

 

[armenius]

I believe if you train with the 1911 your skills will always improve , with time.. That being said: if I were to write policy for an agency it would be this: an officer would have to carry and qualify with a issued sidearm and demonstrate safe skills for at least 2 years before he would be allowed to carry a 1911. I consider the 1911 to be an expert or highly qualified shooters sidearm.
As an aside, remember: many officers carry a Glock with no thumb safety, and one in the pipe. condition 1?????

——-+++++++++++.
I have a different view of training, I think if you are capable enough to to use a complex item that you could start training with it from day one.
Many folk are issued Glocks (I own and shoot several) and there are numerous reports of Accidental Discharges. With proper instruction I believe the 1911 may be safer.
Military Pilot training starts training in retractable landing gear in the first few hours with no significant problems. General aviation pilots with hundreds of hours flying fixed gear and then taking up retractable gear aircraft might forget to extend the gear and land with gear up in situations of stress where they might revert to the old habit of flying aircraft with fixed gear.
This isn’t to denigrate any pilot, but I am trying to make the point that with adequate training most people can master any complex piece of equipment.
Adequate training is essential.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I'm not a fan of condition 1 carry. The pistol was not designed to be carried that way, and IMO, it's just too dangerous. I don't know if there are any documented cases of a parts failure causing an unintended discharge . However, a pistol is simply a piece of equipment with small parts that need to be in perfect sync. as a group. Small parts can fail, it's as simple as that. in a 1911, the disconnector, sear, hammer, and safety are all under a high load, provided by the mainspring. And any of those parts could fail. I'm a fan of the Detonics pistol. It is designed to be carried in condition 2; the rear sight being moved forward so the thumb has good purchase to cock the hammer as the gun is drawn. Just sayin'

Condition 1 is not for everybody, and there's nothing wrong with not being comfortable with it.

With that said, it would take multiple parts failures for a 1911 to just fire by itself. There would have to be a failure of the hammer-sear engagement, then a failure of the half-cock notch. If you have a 1911 with a firing pin block, that would have to fail, too. It may have happened at some point in time, but I've never heard of it.

I've heard of 1911s going full-auto, but that's with guns with super light trigger jobs, where the hammer-sear engagement is practically a razor's edge. It's one of the reasons I like my 1911s with heavier trigger pulls. My carry 1911 has had a trigger job, but I specified a 4.5-5.0lb pull. I don't have a trigger pull gauge, but I can say it's heavier than the SA pull on either of my DA/SA Berettas. Not only is it more durable, but I can definitely feel the weight even with gloves on, which helps mitigate the potential for NDs while under stress.

 

[Darkenfast]

No military background or experience. Just LE, training and instructing, plus CC Instructor.

In that vein - anything short of Condition 1, dictates that your 'offside' hand is totally healthy and unoccupied so that it will be wholly ready and capable of properly racking the slide to ready the pistol.

Except - Murphy.... who happens to attend many, many bad events.
Your offside hand may be occupied and engaged in sweeping away one of your children, your spouse, be physically engaged in fending off an aggressor.
Just IMHO, it's always been a very big assumption that you'll have the luxury of two ready hands in a critical span of a few seconds to properly work a slide.
And, this is not 1911-centric, this applies to any auto pistol.

All this may be giving JMB a headache in heaven.

One more time: as noted by me just a few posts above and by others on this forum, we were trained to rack the pistol one-handed if both hands are not available. There are good reasons to argue for carrying the 1911 either in Condition One or Condition Three, but the myth that you can't rack the pistol unless you have both hands free isn't one of them.

 

[ContinentalOp]

——-+++++++++++.
I have a different view of training, I think if you are capable enough to to use a complex item that you could start training with it from day one.
Many folk are issued Glocks (I own and shoot several) and there are numerous reports of Accidental Discharges. With proper instruction I believe the 1911 may be safer.
Military Pilot training starts training in retractable landing gear in the first few hours with no significant problems. General aviation pilots with hundreds of hours flying fixed gear and then taking up retractable gear aircraft might forget to extend the gear and land with gear up in situations of stress where they might revert to the old habit of flying aircraft with fixed gear.
This isn’t to denigrate any pilot, but I am trying to make the point that with adequate training most people can master any complex piece of equipment.
Adequate training is essential.

I can't remember who said it (Chuck Taylor, maybe...?), but I read that if you can learn to drive, you can learn to run a 1911. There's a certain amount of truth in that, I think. Of course, the difference is how much time is spent "practicing" driving versus practicing with a pistol. The 1911 isn't for everybody, and running one isn't exactly rocket surgery, but I think it does take a bit more commitment than, say, a DA revolver or a Glock.

And there have been police agencies that either issued or authorized 1911s. I think it was Tacoma PD that made the gun news some years back when they selected Kimber 1911s as their standard issue pistol. I don't know if it's still the case, but I know the El Monte (CA) PD issued 1911s for several years. And I believe sometime after the North Hollywood shootout the LAPD allowed their rank-and-file officers to carry 1911s after completing a transition course; not sure if that's still the case.

 

[ContinentalOp]

One more time: as noted by me just a few posts above and by others on this forum, we were trained to rack the pistol one-handed if both hands are not available. There are good reasons to argue for carrying the 1911 either in Condition One or Condition Three, but the myth that you can't rack the pistol unless you have both hands free isn't one of them.

True, and I do practice one-handed racking for reloads and malfunction clearing, but C1 is still going to be faster and more efficient than C3, in my opinion.

 

[dandyrandy]

Eh... 1911s are archaic ancient pistols. The Colt 1903, which is an older design, is better suited for personal civilian carry. I say any condition of 1911 is better than having no gun at all. I like the "cocked locked and hot" however some people have a problem with that. The biggest problem is "weak" firing pin springs and dropped guns resulting in accidental discharges. New and upgraded "series 70" guns not a problem however an old ancient unfamiliar GI or Government model I would treat differently.