1911A1 & full length guide rods

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BigBill

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I'm not sure where we left off with that post.

But since the FLGR kits I purchased have the 18# recoil spring. I'm wondering since the full length guide rod holds recoil spring straight and it can't bind as it coils and lose pressure. Can a lower pressure recoil spring be used and still have the same results. Can the FLGR setup with the 18# recoil spring be over springing it?

Now another discussion is needed too what about the straight even coiled springs vs the variable coiled springs that wolf offer?

Sounds like another test at the range. Pick up a variable 16.0, 16.5, 17.0 & a 17.5 recoil springs and test them. I feel even the 16.0 spring held in a straight line will have more force with the FLGR.

It's the even coiled springs vs the variable coiled springs.

What do you think?

I want the best tuned, the most accurate, the best handling 1911a1 I can have. Without sacrificing quality, dependability, and reliability.
 
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BigBill said:
I'm not sure where we left off with that post.

But since the FLGR kits I purchased have the 18# recoil spring. I'm wondering since the full length guide rod holds recoil spring straight and it can't bind as it coils and lose pressure. Can a lower pressure recoil spring be used and still have the same results. Can the FLGR setup with the 18# recoil spring be over springing it?

Now another discussion is needed too what about the straight even coiled springs vs the variable coiled springs that wolf offer?

Sounds like another test at the range. Pick up a variable 16.0, 16.5, 17.0 & a 17.5 recoil springs and test them. I feel even the 16.0 spring held in a straight line will have more force with the FLGR.

It's the even coiled springs vs the variable coiled springs.

What do you think?

I want the best tuned, the most accurate, the best handling 1911a1 I can have. Without sacrificing quality, dependability, and reliability.
Click to expand...


Shoot the gun and see what happens.

It is my understanding that the 18# spring works best with 230 gr ammo. The lighter the bullet, the lighter the spring. All depends on what ammo you shoot.

As far as the Wolff springs, I'm not sure. But I resisted buying one because coil springs have been getting the job done for over 100 years.
 
A quick perusal of the Wolff sight doesn't show any spring difference for GI or FLGR. I've never heard of using a different spring for a different rod, just tuning for heavier/lighter than standard 230gr loads.

I own both types & honestly can't really say I've noticed any difference in performance between GI & FL.
 
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I have never noticed any improvement using a full length guide rod in a full size 1911. As Fishslayer said, match the spring to the ammo.
 
My small group shoots a lot of these. I like to find what shoots best in a certain gun heavy or light & when I get the load down play with the springs. If it stovepipes try a lighter spring or different mag or .2 more powder. I like the lightest spring that will work with that load. Target loads are what we work with. I have a box of springs. Sometimes if its close I cut a coil at a time. I have taken some springs and cut a coil at a time until they screw up. On a hot load use a heavy spring. I like my brass in a 1911 to go 3 to five feet. If your brass is in the same area your groups should be good also. 200 grain hard cast are my favorite with a flat base. On the guide rods I have 50 50. I see no difference in a group when I change them. I use a rubber buffer & watch what the action does to that & when they look ok after 200-300 rounds switch to a nylon. I have one full size 1911 that will shoot 3 1/2 grains of Bullseye with a 200 swc but not a 185 grain. The 185 shoots good but it will not lock the slide back unless I add more powder. I am old and will be 71 next month. A 2 1/2 or less 10 shot bench rested 45 group makes me happier than sex.:)
 
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The recoil spring rate is going to depend on the load you're shooting and the mainspring rate.I doubt I'd spend the money to change a GI guide rod to a FLGR though I don't see them being a problem other than needing a takedown wrench to field strip the gun.(I keep one in my glove box,cleaning box,my desk...)
 
When using the stronger recoil springs when we run the slide by hand we can hear the spring cooling and binding as the slide moves rearward.

Wolf offers a variable recoil spring it fits with or without the FLGR.
 
I have been using16# and 16.5# V Wolf springs in my 1911s for years with no problems whatsoever. The 16# works fine with my loads which are all IPSC/USPSA major +. I also have always used a FLGR. with no problem. There are too many professional competition shooters out there that think a FLGR provides greater reliability the the conventional short GR. I am not going to argue with them. They shoot more rounds in a month of practice and matches through their 1911s than most people do in a lifetime. The FLGR offers increased reliability with high round count guns, helps reduce muzzle flip, a slight bit of recoil reduction. Keep in mind that the military 1911s were carried a lot and shot seldom. For that the short GR was adequate. Wolf Variable springs are nice and often will cover a wide range of loads.

What weight recoil spring to use depends on your particular pistol, the load you commonly shoot and weight of your mainspring. I use a 19# mainspring. For bulls eye shooting people generally use lighter springs, for some super hot loads or an especially tight gun, or a lightened slide an 18# maybe indicated. Colt 1911 Commanders have almost always came from the factory with an 18# recoil spring. You need to experiment with your gun and loads to see what it is happy with.
 
With the 18lb spring installed pull the slide back slowly the spring noise will tell you something isn't right.
 
Years ago I had a BoMar Rib on my Colt Ser 70. The smith who mounted it trimmed the original spring to account for the extra weigh. Worked great. Took the rib off but forgot the spring had been modified. Its never been a problem. Just crossed my mind the other day and ordered an 18 lb replacement. Can't recommend trimming the spring but mine worked fine for a lot of years. Changing it to see if it helps recoil. (getting old)
 
BigBill said:
I'm not sure where we left off with that post.

But since the FLGR kits I purchased have the 18# recoil spring. I'm wondering since the full length guide rod holds recoil spring straight and it can't bind as it coils and lose pressure. Can a lower pressure recoil spring be used and still have the same results. Can the FLGR setup with the 18# recoil spring be over springing it?

Now another discussion is needed too what about the straight even coiled springs vs the variable coiled springs that wolf offer?

Sounds like another test at the range. Pick up a variable 16.0, 16.5, 17.0 & a 17.5 recoil springs and test them. I feel even the 16.0 spring held in a straight line will have more force with the FLGR.

It's the even coiled springs vs the variable coiled springs.

What do you think?

I want the best tuned, the most accurate, the best handling 1911a1 I can have. Without sacrificing quality, dependability, and reliability.
Click to expand...
Personally, I don't run an 18# recoil spring in a full size .45acp 1911 regardless of guide rod. The standard weight spring is 16lb, it works fine with most loads. I prefer a slightly heavier spring and generally run a 17#. I only shoot 230gr ammo and the 17# spring works great with both standard pressure ball and my +P carry ammo.

Not all of my 1911s have FLGRs, I don't think they are a necessity but I do find that my guns cycle a bit smoother with them and I like that. I have never seen any difference in accuracy or recoil between the FLGR and a GI guide rod.

I can understand you wanting "the best tuned, the most accurate, the best handling 1911a1 I can have. Without sacrificing quality, dependability, and reliability." But I think you're putting way too much thought and effort into the guide rod and recoil spring. If your gun is cycling reliably and kicking brass 4'-8', your recoil spring weight is fine. Guide rod choice is personal, like I said, I feel that my guns cycle a little smoother with them so I like them but they're not deal breakers and I don't have them in all of my 1911s.

There are many other components and factors other than the guide rod that you could be spending time on that actually impact on a 1911s accuracy and reliability. I think your efforts and concerns are misplaced.


I don't recall the other thread you mentioned, how about refreshing everyone's memory as to what kind of 1911 you're talking about and how it's set up?
 
My question is what's causing the front of the frame rails to be looser than the rear section of the frame rails. Every used 1911a1 I look at has this front frame rail wear. Does the recoil spring binding as it coils put a horizontal force on the front of the frame rails that's causing this wear?
All my 1911a1's are lubed with moly.

Now my very first 1911 project was a Chinese norinco 1911a1. It's a USGI clone. The barrel bushing was loose in the slide. It's the perfect forged steel frame and slide for a build. I purchased a surplus USGI barrel $59 SPG, a IAI NM barrel bushing $14 @ cdnn. A FLGR KIT with 18lb recoil spring @ SPG for $9. I did all the fitting. Before I installed the FLGR KIT. I heard the 18lb recoil spring binding as it coils as I pull the slide rearward by hand.
By installing the FLGR KIT this binding and compiling noise is gone.
Every used 1911 has this wear at the front frame rails.
Ok I fitted the barrel bushing to the slide. Then I fitted the barrel to the bushing. I have no barrel spring in full battery and I have 100% lock up in full battery. The link in full battery is within specs. When the barrel lowers to load the next round I have no barrel spring there too. I left the frame rail and slide fit alone for now. Now at the range at 25 yards using wolf 45 acp ball ammo she shoots clusters and cloverleafs no matter who shoots it.
I would like to address the front frame rail but I'd like to try 200gr swc target loads first.

I wonder if it's the slide spreading too?

I purchased all the 1911 tools and fixtures from brownells. I have the tools to fix the frame rails too. But it's so accurate why touch it.
 
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BigBill said:
I purchased all the 1911 tools and fixtures from brownells. I have the tools to fix the frame rails too. But it's so accurate why touch it.
Click to expand...

Your last sentence is the answer you seek......

The slide fit to all the stuff that goes inside it is the key to accuracy with a 1911. If your barrel is locking into the slide tight, while in battery, then chances are good the accuracy will be there. The fit of frame rails to slide rails is not as important, except if it's too tight the gun will start to malfunction. As far as guide rod length; The tactical guys will say the GI type is best, the super accuracy guys will say only full length guide rods for them. I really don't think it matters to most of us, as long as the 1911 functions and shoots accurately.... refer to your last sentence.

I've got a beautiful stainless Colt 38 Super that was built by a nationally known gunsmith, who fortunately lives in the area. This 1911 had what I thought was a too loose slide to frame fit up front, with quite a bit of up and down play when in battery. This thing shoots ridiculous small groups with all the 38 Super ammo I've tried in it. Before I bought this 1911 from my good friend who had it built, I asked the gunsmith about the slide play. His comment was along the lines of: if it works why worry about it. Well it shoots better than I can, and I quit worrying about it.
 
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One of the NRA publications years ago, had a test and percentage of the accuracy added by doing various things in a 1911. The barrel link to slide stop fit was the most critical with the hood following and then the bushing to barrel, as I recall. The slide fit both vertical and horizontal added minimal amounts but they were minimal in the overall group size. That article is probably still in some publication they print. It will be something that is about 1911's. If you call the NRA they can help refer you to it.

As far as spring tensions. Basic colt Govt is 16lbs, Commander is 18lbs factory spec. Upgrade tensions are whatever you want. At one time when IPSC was king a lot of shooters used 20 and 22lb springs for reliability and to make felt recoil less, so they said. I have never felt it was necessary to go above a Wolff 18.5 lb and that was my standard when I was building guns professionally. I used a full length guide rod in all my IPSC guns because it not only makes all the horses show up for work but it stabilizes the slide return to cut down on wear and vibration.

One item that is overlooked is the mainspring. Back in the early days of IPSC many smiths lightened the mainspring to get better trigger pulls. Some probably still do. Colt did that in the Gold Cup. And it does work to the effect that reducing the pressure on the sear/hammer connection will reduce the pull required. However, I always felt that the lowering of mainspring tension made the hammer cock easier on slide recoil and in that manner increased shooter felt recoil when the slide was at full recoil as there was less pressure to retard the slide. Mainspring tension on Gov'ts was 20lbs and Commanders 22lbs. I felt that using a heavier commander mainspring in Govts was a better modification to reduce shooter felt recoil and allow faster recovery on target. The fly in the ointment is that one must know how to do a proper trigger job in order to get a creep free, crisp feeling trigger with a stronger mainspring. NRA bullseye requirements were trigger must be not lighter than 4 lbs for hardball and 3.5 lbs for centerfire. I tried to do my triggers so that they fell between 3.5 to 4 lbs and were crisp and would not follow, even though bullseye rules didn't apply to IPSC.
 
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I like the Wolff springs, but I am not a fan of the FLGR.

The FLGR just doesn't change the 1911a1 for the better,

IME. But Wolff springs, OTOH, big difference.

YMMV...
 
This is one of those debates that can go on forever. Valid points can be made for both sides without anyone ever proving for sure which is actually better. A lot depends on the individual gun and shooter. So each case is different. All I can really suggest is that you experiment and find what works for you.

For the record: I don't like FLGRs. I routinely run 18.5 lb Wolff springs in my .45 hardball guns, 16 lb springs in .45 target guns and .38 Supers and 20 lb springs in my Commanders. This is what works for me. YMMV

Just to add, I've never noticed any excessive wear on the front of the frame rails and barrel fit is far more important to accuracy than slide to frame fit. In fact, I think that having the slide and frame too tight has a negative effect as it reduces reliability. JMHO
 
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