1917 British .455

[Jack Flash]

Gun shops often confuse the .455 Hand Ejector 2nd Model and the M1917 (Model of 1917) US Service Revolver. They do look a lot alike. As you correctly noted, the .455 HE2 has a 6.5" barrel. Unless its been modified, of course.


These are great old guns and the prices have been going up a lot. I saw a nearly pristine, all original .455 HE2 at Cabela's a few years ago, but I choked on the $800 price tag. Sounds like that would be a bargain now.

 

[Plutonius]

Gun shops often confuse the .455 Hand Ejector 2nd Model and the M1917 (Model of 1917) US Service Revolver. They do look a lot alike. As you correctly noted, the .455 HE2 has a 6.5" barrel. Unless its been modified, of course.


These are great old guns and the prices have been going up a lot. I saw a nearly pristine, all original .455 HE2 at Cabela's a few years ago, but I choked on the $800 price tag. Sounds like that would be a bargain now.

If it was not modified then that is a decent price. I paid 500 for my modified 2nd Model 455 Hand Ejector.

 

[glowe]

Whether the gun was "properly" modified to 45 Colt does not change the fact it was modified. I hope you still have the gun on layaway and can reconsider the purchase?? To give you some perspective, I have bid on 2 different 455s in the last week, only to have both posted as "PASSED" at the auction because my bid was not high enough and there were no other bidders. Really bothers me that a gun goes up for auction with a couple of very large auction houses and they won't sell the gun even though they did not post a reserve. The first was a nicely nickel plated gun with original 455 chambering. I put in a max bid of $450 and it sat at $250 with no other bidders. The auction house had a estimate of $400 to $600 on it. I contacted the auction house and offered my max bid and did not even receive a reply. The second gun was re-blued and modified to shoot clips and again I bid my max bid of $400 only to have that one pass with no reserve posted and no estimated value.

Anyway, what I wanted to convey is that these guns, when modified, have little value. I would have expected the gun to go under $500, but to not have any bids above my minimum of $250 offered at a major auction is somewhat surprising.

I like these N frames and wanted to add a couple shooters to my collection and am still upset that the auction houses would not sell the guns.

 

[Plutonius]

I beg to differ. It depends entirely on what was modified. Refinishing the handgun does far more damage to the value of this gun then simply modifying the cylinder. Also permanent modifications to the original sights would also far effect the value than reaming and counter boring the cylinders.

Cylinder modification was common practice on 455 handguns in general, whether that be a Webley Mark VI or a Colt New Service 455. It was such a popular modification that Smith and Wesson includes that reference in factory letters of the 2nd model 455 hand ejectors.

Saying that cylinder modifications have little value is just not accurate. A Webley Mark VI in its original condition goes for around 900-1000 while a shaved 45ACP Webley goes for around 600. The market in general would certainly challenge your assumptions of "little value". Value, as with most things, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[glowe]

. . . I beg to differ. It depends entirely on what was modified. Refinishing the handgun does far more damage to the value of this gun then simply modifying the cylinder . . . A Webley Mark VI in its original condition goes for around 900-1000 while a shaved 45ACP Webley goes for around 600 . . .

How can you beg to differ with your own estimate of a 40% value loss by re-chambering?? $600 is optimistic for a caliber modified S&W unless you do all you shopping on GB. Even at that amount, I will still call a nice re-chambered 455 HE as having little value when compared to a nice original gun. An original S&W N frame in nice condition will sell for over over $1000 if original, and $500 if re-chambered. That would be a gun that is worth only 50% of what it would be if orginal.

 

[steelslaver]

One that is shaved for 45 acp has lost the serial number on cylinder. Same with one that got shaved and reamed to 45colt. But, one that was reamed and partially recessed to fire 45 colt and will still fire 455, will retain the cylinders serial number. While you may completely dismiss all modified guns as unworthy of your consiteration. I do not. Beauty in the eyes of the beholder. Not all of us are only interested in collect-ability.
Do I wish my 455 TL was unmodified, yes a bit, but I also like that I can fire 45 colts in it. Each to their own.

 

[glowe]

. . . While you may completely dismiss all modified guns as unworthy of your consiteration. I do not. Beauty in the eyes of the beholder. Not all of us are only interested in collect-ability.

Did you not read my posts?? I tried to buy two modified 455 HEs last week and the auction houses could not even find anyone to bid against me above my $250 minimum bid. I placed a maximum of $400 and not one other bid from all the attendees and online bidders. I wanted both or I would not have bid. The OPs gun is probably one that I would purchase for a range gun if the price was right. It has nothing to do with anything "unworthy".

 

[Plutonius]

How can you beg to differ with your own estimate of a 40% value loss by re-chambering?? $600 is optimistic for a caliber modified S&W unless you do all you shopping on GB. Even at that amount, I will still call a nice re-chambered 455 HE as having little value when compared to a nice original gun. An original S&W N frame in nice condition will sell for over over $1000 if original, and $500 if re-chambered. That would be a gun that is worth only 50% of what it would be if orginal.

Its all word play it seems but the big difference I believe you are failing to account for is the historical undercurrent of the particular firearm in question. Wartime used firearms, regardless of a caliber modification, are in a slightly different ballpark than a commercial firearm regardless of whether we are speaking of Smith and Wessons, Colts or anything for that matter.

When one says "little value" it invokes an image of a $200 or less gun, at least based on my opinion. Similar to say a old H&R or Iver Johson top break. I think it paints an inaccurate picture of the value of these .455 WW1 used revolvers. Does cylinder modifications hurt the value: Yes, most certainly but it doesn`t instantly evaporate all said value from the firearm.

But in the end that is my opinion, I let the market decide.

 

[Plutonius]

Did you not read my posts?? I tried to buy two modified 455 HEs last week and the auction houses could not even find anyone to bid against me above my $250 minimum bid. I placed a maximum of $400 and not one other bid from all the attendees and online bidders. I wanted both or I would not have bid. The OPs gun is probably one that I would purchase for a range gun if the price was right. It has nothing to do with anything "unworthy".

You really are adding more variables into the equation. They were refinished which automatically cut the value in half regardless of the addition of a cylinder modification. I wouldn`t expect anyone to bid more than $200-$300 especially when you factor in a buyers premium. It is also inaccurate to make a blanket statement on .455 HE market prices based on that experience.

 

[rgm36]

I wish I could find N frames for the prices you guys are talking about.

Where I'm from, any N frame that can still push lead out the barrel brings a minimum of $700.00 regardless of condition, scarcity or originality.

When you even "slightly" increase condition, scarcity and originality the price "doubles instantly" and the sky is the limit after that.

If anybody here has nice $300.00 N frames for sale - let me know

 

[Jack Flash]

I guess you can't blame a guy for entering a low-ball bid and hoping he'll get the item. But it could be that infuriated the seller so much that he wouldn't respond.


Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

 

[DWalt]

The last .455 2nd Model I saw about two months ago was about 90% and had not been modified. It had an $1800 price tag on it. It may be worth that to some, but not to me. I might be interested at $1000, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get it at even that price as I am more interested in a gun I can shoot (not too easy for anything chambered in .455) than one I can't. On the other hand, I would be more likely to part with $1000 for that same gun properly modified to take both .455 and .45 Colt.

 

[hanover67]

Thanks for all the comments so far. I've learned a lot.

I was initially attracted to the .455 because it had adjustable target sights. As plus points it was a Smith & Wesson and a big-bore, oddball caliber, all desirable aspects to me. I wasn't sure what it was chambered for, but have since discovered that it is .45 Colt, another bonus. The sights look professionally done, although they look a little Rugerish. The finish is a little worn, which adds character, and I really like the British proofmarks, including "not English made." On the down side, the grips are big, ugly, plastic Fitz thumbrest target types, but they can be replaced.

I'm not concerned with "collector value." I buy guns to shoot, reload for, and enjoy. I don't have a single safe queen. I buy guns I can afford, not for investment purposes.

I can certainly appreciate folks who have other interests than mine. And, I think my best S&W find so far is this forum.

 

[glowe]

I guess you can't blame a guy for entering a low-ball bid and hoping he'll get the item. But it could be that infuriated the seller so much that he wouldn't respond.

Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

Well, the auction companies placed a low and high estimate and I set my maximum bid above the low estimate, but my bid entered at half my max bid and without anyone else bidding, the number did not go higher. Problem is that I offered my max bid to the auction house after the item was passed and they ignored it.

I am not so irritated that I did not get either item, but rather the fact that they ignored 2 emails without even a reply.

 

[Texas Star]

Gun shops often confuse the .455 Hand Ejector 2nd Model and the M1917 (Model of 1917) US Service Revolver. They do look a lot alike. As you correctly noted, the .455 HE2 has a 6.5" barrel. Unless its been modified, of course.


These are great old guns and the prices have been going up a lot. I saw a nearly pristine, all original .455 HE2 at Cabela's a few years ago, but I choked on the $800 price tag. Sounds like that would be a bargain now.

You'll love knowing that I paid $31.58 for one in NRA VG-Plus to Excellent shape in Denver in 1965 or '66.


Couldn't ever find .455 ammo, so I sold it a few years later for about what I'd paid. No way to know they'd get to be so expensive.


I guess those converted to .45 Colt will safely fire the Cowboy loads? Those ought to be about as potent as original .455 Colt ammo, made on the MK I length case. Not that I'd hunt anything much bigger than a jackrabbit with those loads. Reloads with Keith bullets or a replica of the Manstopper bullets would make it a wicked stopper on men at close ranges. Apparently the MK III HP Manstopper bullet did expand, even at those low velocities. The MK IV .455 was a solid wadcutter. A modern handload with that in a .45 Colt case at about 800 FPS should account pretty well for a burglar. Old guns like this may not take that much pressure, but a modern .45 Colt will, especially a Ruger. Even in original RN form, the .45 Colt bullet has been a good killer.

 

[DWalt]

At that time, the .455 cylinders were not heat treated, so it would be a prudent idea to use only Cowboy or mild .45 Colt lead bullet reloads. To take it a step further on the side of caution, I use only 200 grain flat nose lead bullets in my older .45 Colt revolvers.

 

[kip595]

I picked up a nice shooter 2nd Model properly converted to .45 Colt about 3 years ago, and with Cowboy loads it has been a pleasant tack driver on the occasions I take it out. It has proofs all over it, the few I've been able to identify indicating travels to Canada, England, and possibly Turkey. Traded a newer but well-used Walther and a $20 bill for it, so I'm pretty happy with that deal.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for all the comments so far. I've learned a lot.

I was initially attracted to the .455 because it had adjustable target sights. As plus points it was a Smith & Wesson and a big-bore, oddball caliber, all desirable aspects to me. I wasn't sure what it was chambered for, but have since discovered that it is .45 Colt, another bonus. The sights look professionally done, although they look a little Rugerish. The finish is a little worn, which adds character, and I really like the British proofmarks, including "not English made."

It sounds like you found a great shooter that you can have a lot of fun with!

It's actually stamped: "NOT ENGLISH MAKE".

NOTE: Observing serial #s AND OTHER MARKINGS for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

You may find this helpful for all your Serial # locations:
To confirm all parts are original, check for your 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956.


1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most target grips because individual fitting not required.)

And Assembly (factory work) #s:
These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the 'yoke cut' on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period.

You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that's the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.

 

[hanover67]

Jim:
You really know how to push my buttons - I found serial numbers 1 through 5, including the ones on the yoke and the back of the extractor star. #6 doesn't apply because I don't have original grips.

I also found 2 od the 3 assembly #s in the yoke cut and on the yoke. I haven't removed the sideplate to look for the 3rd number.

Why am I doing this?

 

[k22fan]

[...] Why am I doing this?

It is an excuse to have fun admiring your newly acquired S&W!

When I bought my S&W 1917 .45 ACP in 1975 it had the same Micro front sight as your .45 combined with a J frame adjustable. Your Micro rear is more precisely adjustable and no doubt was a more expensive up grade. Sporterizing inexpensive military guns was still a popular way to get a hunting rifle or target revolver less expensively than buying a fairly new used one so most people would not have called your Micro sights "sight mutilations" back then. I would have preferred Micros but later on the trimness of the J frame sight was an advantage for concealed carry.

You will probably find accuracy is better with the largest diameter .45 pistol bullets that you can buy or buy molds for. It will be a fun reloading project.