1917 Commercial Target just sold - 1 of 5 made?

[jmace57]

I was just attending (on-line) an auction where a 1917 Commercial Target came up for sale. Here is the description from the auction house. Supposedly one of 5 made (as described in SCSW). I realize there are some fairly serious condition issues, but think someone may have stolen this for $1200. Factory letter included. (I was clicking and bidding up...suddenly it just said "bid removed" and gave it to someone onsite.) Real, do y'all think?



REVOLVER. Cal. 45 ACP. S#179592. Bbl. 5 1/2". Very rare model with factory letter stating 5 1/2" bbl. with Call gold bead front sight, adjustable rear target sight contoured to frame. Grooved tangs & trigger. Also listed in letter are butt swivel, blued finish, grooved tangs, grooved trigger & checkered non monogrammed walnut grips (right grip pencil numbered to gun; unmarked left grip of lighter color). Left side of frame has S&W logo; right side has only "MADE IN U.S.A.". "Standard Catalogue of Smith & Wessons" indicates only 5 mfg. This revolver shipped Feb. 13, 1928 to Chief of police W.M. Peterson of Winnetka, IL. Added Ace trigger shoe. Mainly made as possible military team target pistol without grooved tangs; this may be the only one made in this configuration for commercial sales. Frame has correct Springfield "S2" proof & bottom of bbl. has "S34" as both produced during WWI while S&W was governmentally part of Springfield Armory. Bbl. has last patent date of "SEP. 14, 1909". CONDITION: frame & cyl. refinished with slightly different hue on matching numbered cyl. (matching numbered extractor). Slight cyl. dragline with remainder of frame & cyl. 98%. Consignor notes states that at one time had number 193899 replacement bbl. now has matching numbered letter described bbl. in fair condition. Pressure roll mark on bbl. in front of cyl. rod latch appears to be reforming of bbl. bulge & appears to have slight remaining bulge & 4 or 5 impact marks on each side of bbl. Bbl. & front sight retaining pins have been reinstalled. Bbl. has minimal finish with good plus bore except for bulge issue. Lanyard swivel appearance & fit appears replacement. Refinishing is good but not S&W quality. Very good grips with very slight marks. Grip screw incorrect as a too long S&W screw. UNATTACHED ACCESSORIES: unmarked contour altered aluminum grip adapter, 2 half moon clips & 1 full moon clip. Good hobbyist made oak case with glass top & angel hair lining. As previously mentioned S&W letter & consignor noted on string tag with $18,995 asking price. (14-2703/NW). CURIO. $1000-3000.

 

[murphydog]

It looks "well used" and the barrel crown does not look factory...however, if true the letter says what the letter says. It would be interesting to know if the numbered parts all match.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

$18,995 asking price...LMAO That was a little ambitious The Gun looks correct and if it letters it letters,But with all the pins being removed and the refinish and the pitting and the wear and the...You see where this is going.

 

[handejector]

I was watching it.
I'm skeptical.
Why no pic of the letter on an $18,000 gun?????

Without having the gun AND letter in hand, I would not break a grand for it. I have seen phony letters for S&W's.

 

[Culina]

It looks put together to me, notice how the barrel, cylinder and frame all have different degrees of finish and even color.

 

[jmace57]

I guess it's just as well then. I don't know why, but it never crossed my mind the letter might be faked.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

So at one point it had a non matching Barrel and somehow the correct one was located later....Sure...

 

[JSR III]

If you look at the barrel above the extractor rod tip it looks like plier or wrench marks where someone may have removed or replaced the barrel. If so, not a very professional job to say the least.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

If you look at the barrel above the extractor rod tip it looks like plier or wrench marks where someone may have removed or replaced the barrel. If so, not a very professional job to say the least.

You mean to tell me that you can't just screw on a new Barrel? Me and my Gunsmith need to chat...

 

[handejector]

from auction description-

Consignor notes states that at one time had number 193899 replacement bbl. now has matching numbered letter described bbl. in fair condition. Pressure roll mark on bbl. in front of cyl. rod latch appears to be reforming of bbl. bulge & appears to have slight remaining bulge & 4 or 5 impact marks on each side of bbl.

You can see the 'roll mark' from a roller going around the barrel in front of the barrel lug to swage the bulge down. Might have been done chucked in a lathe.
My guess is that part of the bulge was above the lug and could not be rolled, so Bubba squeezed it in a vise to push the bulge down. Those look like vise jaw marks.

 

[bmg60]

Hi
There are only two documented by factory letter this one shipped to Canada
it is in my collection all original in 99% condition. The other one was a nickel one that had been refinished and it had issues. there are a couple of ones made with a drift rear sight.
Uncle Ed has one maybe he will be by later. the 5 number was just a guess.
Jim

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Hi
There are only two documented by factory letter this one shipped to Canada
it is in my collection all original in 99% condition. The other one was a nickel one that had been refinished and it had issues. there are a couple of ones made with a drift rear sight.
Uncle Ed has one maybe he will be by later. the 5 number was just a guess.
Jim

So that means that the Auction Gun was not legit then,correct?

 

[bmg60]

Hi
Like Lee posted. With out being able to see the letter we do not know if it is
real. when I said only two documented that is the ones that I have been able to
look at and check the letters.
There could be more but not documented by factory letter.
There was a 1917 Target that belonged to Ed McGivern a couple years ago but I can not remember if it shipped as a Target or was done by the factory for ED. It had a non standard front sight that did not look like factory work.
Jim

Here is the post about the Nickel Target that I referenced above.
so it looks like there are two nickel targets and one blued one documented so we are getting closer to 5.

Group, I saw DB Wesson's post above about the lettered nickel commercial Model 1917, in Holtville, CA. that Larry used in his display. There is now a lettered nickel commercial TARGET model, also residing in Holtville, CA. It can be relocated to your collection, if you are a serious S&WCA collector who wants the only such Model 1917 made! Transfer fee is in the low 5 figures. Send me a PM if you are that serious collector! Ed.

Here you go this is the one I referenced above.

Heres a picture of the McGivern 45 it only had a Target type front sight that the factory did for ED.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Interesting,I am glad I stumbled across my Factory Pre War converted 1917 when I did.It is one of my top 3 favorite Guns in my collection.They where way ahead of their time when it was thought that .45acp was just a service round.

 

[opoefc]

The nickel Target Model 1917 cited above is real but had been refinished at some time in the past and that fact was not mentioned in the advertisement pictured above, and became the subject of a dispute between the parties, resulting in the seller resigning his membership in the S&WCA rather than face expulsion for fraud. The gun still resides in Holtville and was never in my collection. I do have a blue Model 1917 Target - Military issue, with a drift adjustable rear sight, made by Springfield Armory for Army Pistol Teams. Ed.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Club Gun Target

There is at least one Club Gun Target, may be more.

 

[bmg60]

Hi
it could be this gun not a full target.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I have a 38 Spl M&P that belonged to a member of the Springfield Revolver Club. It has sights like Jim's, the factory letter refers to that set up as a Semi-Target.

 

[mikepriwer]

I two of them at one point, that I had gotten from Ray B, and later sold back to him.
One was a 5 1/2", and the other a 6 1/2". Both lettered.

Mike Priwer