2 in. SA .38
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cgt4570
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The book lists 3-1/4" as the shortest barrel for the .38 SA Second Model, but anything is possible.
Odds are high that the barrel is from a later .38 DA or .38 Safety (or swapped by the factory, even). Is there a star in front of the SN on the bottom of the grip frame to indicate a factory re-work?
The SN on the barrel is very tiny and stamped between the 'ears' inside the barrel latch.
Lift the latch and look on the flat inside with a magnifying glass.
It should match the butt SN.
If it's blank or different, then it didn't ship that way.
Now if it matches, that one is definitely worth investing in a factory letter.
Odds are high that the barrel is from a later .38 DA or .38 Safety (or swapped by the factory, even). Is there a star in front of the SN on the bottom of the grip frame to indicate a factory re-work?
The SN on the barrel is very tiny and stamped between the 'ears' inside the barrel latch.
Lift the latch and look on the flat inside with a magnifying glass.
It should match the butt SN.
If it's blank or different, then it didn't ship that way.
Now if it matches, that one is definitely worth investing in a factory letter.
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Could you provide a closeup picture of the patent dates or copy them in a post? Curious what the September date is? The presence of a side patent date stamp indicates that it should be a factory 2" barrel, but from what model is the question? As noted above, make sure you look for a serial number on the very rear of the top rib between the ears where the latch pivots upward.
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All of the numbers match. Even the barrel.
Can't get any closer. Dates match what is normally on the top.
No star that indicates a factory re-work but the letter says:
* shipped July of 1884 to M.W. Robinson (surprise, surprise.)
* 4 inch barrel, nickle, black hard rubber grips.
now the fun:
* "The 2-inch barrel was added after they became available in the late 1890s."
Based on my observation, it is clearly a factory barrel.
The last line of the letter 'implies' that it is a factory re-barrel, but doesn't actually say it.
Does anyone out there is Smith & Wesson collector land have one?
Books
Can't get any closer. Dates match what is normally on the top.
No star that indicates a factory re-work but the letter says:
* shipped July of 1884 to M.W. Robinson (surprise, surprise.)
* 4 inch barrel, nickle, black hard rubber grips.
now the fun:
* "The 2-inch barrel was added after they became available in the late 1890s."
Based on my observation, it is clearly a factory barrel.
The last line of the letter 'implies' that it is a factory re-barrel, but doesn't actually say it.
Does anyone out there is Smith & Wesson collector land have one?
Books
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Mr. Books, aint sold yet, but wanna be. Neat snub.
applefish
Member
The 32 S&W lemon squeezers had a 2" bicycle gun variation where they stamped the barrel similarly, so it there was definitely a market for snub-nosed top breaks back in the 1890's. On those guns, they also stamped the barrel markings on the side of the barrel instead of the normal location on top of the barrel rib.
So 2" barrels were made for 38 S&W, but were they interchangeable with the baby russians?
What's most puzzling is how the serial number on the barrel matches, if the letter shows it was originally shipped out with a 4" barrel.
The standard catalog also lists that bicycle guns were available for the .38 Safety Hammerless 5th Model (1907-1940).
So 2" barrels were made for 38 S&W, but were they interchangeable with the baby russians?
What's most puzzling is how the serial number on the barrel matches, if the letter shows it was originally shipped out with a 4" barrel.
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Patent dates
It's a great looking short barrel but I guess you have to ask yourself if Smith & Wesson would install a barrel on a much earlier Single Action frame with patent dates that refer to later double action improvements? That's a tough one to get around.
Murph
It's a great looking short barrel but I guess you have to ask yourself if Smith & Wesson would install a barrel on a much earlier Single Action frame with patent dates that refer to later double action improvements? That's a tough one to get around.
Murph
Well, if the 2" barrel became available in the late 1890's, and your firearm shipped in 1884, then it cannot be original to the gun. I believe Smith & Wesson becan stamping rework dates on the frame during the first decade of the 20th Century. I want to say the earliest guns with such dates that have been identified have the two digit year of 09, meaning 1909, but it might have been a few years earlier than that. Which means that your barrel was installed before restamping of dates became commonplace or, if later, the frame escaped restamping.
Can you provide good photographs of the barrel serial number so we can determine if the numbers appear to be factory in origin?
You might want to contact the SWHF to see if they have information on when this might have been done. I have a revolver with the star on it but no date, for some unknown reason, and they still provided me with a multitude of information on the work done on the firearm, this being in the autumn of 1929.
However, without any documentation to prove any of this, it makes it difficult to assign a value to this, other than to someone who might find it to be "neat" and pays a price that reflects outside later modifications.
Can you provide good photographs of the barrel serial number so we can determine if the numbers appear to be factory in origin?
You might want to contact the SWHF to see if they have information on when this might have been done. I have a revolver with the star on it but no date, for some unknown reason, and they still provided me with a multitude of information on the work done on the firearm, this being in the autumn of 1929.
However, without any documentation to prove any of this, it makes it difficult to assign a value to this, other than to someone who might find it to be "neat" and pays a price that reflects outside later modifications.
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cgt4570
Member
That's a .38 SA Second Model, NOT a Baby Russian. The 1st Model 'Baby Russians' have an extended under lug and used a different extractor mechanism.
I agree with above comments that it's definitely a factory 2" barrel. I have a .38 'lemon squeezer' with factory pearls with the same barrel.
Since it has a matching barrel SN, then it must have been installed by the factory. My best guess is that it was sent back for the snub barrel, but somehow failed to get a star or date stamp.
I have a cut down near twin, though. I got it cheap due to a barrel bulge past 2". I cut it down and installed a front sight with silver solder in a slot I cut. Yes, it's cut into the pat. info, but it's still a neat little pocket gun.
I'd check with the SW Historical Foundation to see if they might have service records or communications for it.
mmaher94087
Member
books, it's not a known variation and I'll admit that I'm skeptical, but the matching serial numbers makes it one in a million. But, as said, I'm a non-believer and until some documentation is provided, I can only speculate that someone was incredibility lucky enough to find matching serials between two .38 caliber DA/SA models. I hope that I'm proven wrong.
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I agree Mike ... it's not a known variant ... but the factory did all sorts of wonky things back in the day, and I suspect there are a lot of "one off" guns out there. Could have been as simple as something cobbled together with some left over parts. Given that these were frugal Yankees, they would have happily sold anything that they could push out the door.
I think the chances of having found two guns with the same serial numbers—and then deciding to cobble them together into some sort of mutant—is right around zero.
Mike
You all have got me thinking. So...
To find the same SN on a different pistol and install it on a SA 2nd model would require finding SN 84XXX.
SN 84XXX would be a 2nd model DA made from 1880-1884. No 2in barrels.
or
a 3rd model Safety Hammerless. Two inch barrels are very rare (about 12) and the latch system would not be compatible.
So....I conclude that the 2nd model SA .38, serial number 84XXX left the factory in 1883 as a 4 inch barrel and was returned sometime in the 1890s and a 2 inch barrel was installed.
Comments please.
Books
To find the same SN on a different pistol and install it on a SA 2nd model would require finding SN 84XXX.
SN 84XXX would be a 2nd model DA made from 1880-1884. No 2in barrels.
or
a 3rd model Safety Hammerless. Two inch barrels are very rare (about 12) and the latch system would not be compatible.
So....I conclude that the 2nd model SA .38, serial number 84XXX left the factory in 1883 as a 4 inch barrel and was returned sometime in the 1890s and a 2 inch barrel was installed.
Comments please.
Books
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Off the top of my head it seems like the most logical explanation—which, given the limited historical documentation on this gun, may be the closest you'll ever get.
Mike
mmaher94087
Member
Agree. Also, the roll marks appear to be those used on the 1st Model .32 Safety Hammerless. The address is stopped after 'Mass' which truncates the second line at 'Oc' (October) and the dingbat (Maltese Cross) is missing on the right end of the address. Interesting revolver.
The markings of the side of the barrel are:
Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass
20 77. Dec 187[?]. May 11 80. Sept 11 83. Oc
Which appears to be the same as the top of the barrel markings on a 1st model .32 Safety Hammerless - if you erase the last (right) 5/8s of an inch.
I have tried to get a closer look at the markings.
Books
Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass
20 77. Dec 187[?]. May 11 80. Sept 11 83. Oc
Which appears to be the same as the top of the barrel markings on a 1st model .32 Safety Hammerless - if you erase the last (right) 5/8s of an inch.
I have tried to get a closer look at the markings.
Books
Attachments
Modified Barrel address
Hi Books,
I sent you a pm....
I'm convinced it's real. I'm convinced the gun was sent to the factory some time in the late 1880's to early 1890's and a special order short barrel was added....
Smith & Wesson began special orders or to be more accurate, altered production, in about 1887 when they started including longer barrel length options. That's documented. Prior to that time they actually printed in their catalogs they did not manufacture special features or altered production. Only those features offered. A very strict standard.
All of that changed in the 1887 timeframe....In fact a lot of historical changes took place in that same year....Very important year for Smith & Wesson. Reloading kits changed to the improved kit that included insulated wood handles on the molds to keep up with industry standards...Totally different from the earlier kits....The bullet designs took a radical change from outside lubricated to inside lubricated and the company now suddenly offered very long barrel lengths "AND" included a Target variation of the New Model 3! That's a lot of change for one year!
This abbreviated barrel address not only dates to the correct period but makes perfect sense for a special order 2" barrel. How exactly does one fake that barrel address? The stamp is a focus on relevant patents only and is very unique.
This is a 38 cal barrel also. It's not a 32cal. Just because it doesn't have a star next to the serial number isn't proof that it didn't go back for a short barrel....When exactly did they start using the "Star" signifier? as a procedure or denoting a rework? I'd say confidently that it wasn't until much later.
It's too bad this work was not recorded for some reason but it does not in the least bit surprise me. It could also have been done between 1887-1890 and could represent a very early special order when procedures were in their infancy.
I have a 2" short barrel 38 Colt lightning that has factory features that do not make sense. The wrong front sight, that was discontinued 5 years prior from standard production. A shortened etched panel that was suspect at the auction I attended....but "it lettered"....Without that letter, nobody was believing it was real...In fact, the factory letter was not listed as part of the auction....I bid on it because I believed it was real...It was just too well done to be fake in my view at that time when I actually looked at it at the preview.
It wasn't until I went to pick up the gun that the 1972 factory letter suddenly showed up....I was beside myself with relief and couldn't wipe the smile off my face...
Murph
Hi Books,
I sent you a pm....
I'm convinced it's real. I'm convinced the gun was sent to the factory some time in the late 1880's to early 1890's and a special order short barrel was added....
Smith & Wesson began special orders or to be more accurate, altered production, in about 1887 when they started including longer barrel length options. That's documented. Prior to that time they actually printed in their catalogs they did not manufacture special features or altered production. Only those features offered. A very strict standard.
All of that changed in the 1887 timeframe....In fact a lot of historical changes took place in that same year....Very important year for Smith & Wesson. Reloading kits changed to the improved kit that included insulated wood handles on the molds to keep up with industry standards...Totally different from the earlier kits....The bullet designs took a radical change from outside lubricated to inside lubricated and the company now suddenly offered very long barrel lengths "AND" included a Target variation of the New Model 3! That's a lot of change for one year!
This abbreviated barrel address not only dates to the correct period but makes perfect sense for a special order 2" barrel. How exactly does one fake that barrel address? The stamp is a focus on relevant patents only and is very unique.
This is a 38 cal barrel also. It's not a 32cal. Just because it doesn't have a star next to the serial number isn't proof that it didn't go back for a short barrel....When exactly did they start using the "Star" signifier? as a procedure or denoting a rework? I'd say confidently that it wasn't until much later.
It's too bad this work was not recorded for some reason but it does not in the least bit surprise me. It could also have been done between 1887-1890 and could represent a very early special order when procedures were in their infancy.
I have a 2" short barrel 38 Colt lightning that has factory features that do not make sense. The wrong front sight, that was discontinued 5 years prior from standard production. A shortened etched panel that was suspect at the auction I attended....but "it lettered"....Without that letter, nobody was believing it was real...In fact, the factory letter was not listed as part of the auction....I bid on it because I believed it was real...It was just too well done to be fake in my view at that time when I actually looked at it at the preview.
It wasn't until I went to pick up the gun that the 1972 factory letter suddenly showed up....I was beside myself with relief and couldn't wipe the smile off my face...
Murph
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This is how the .32 Bicycle gun was marked.
mmaher94087
Member
Books, looks legit for a factory re-barrel to the two inch. The barrel markings are the same as used on the right side of the 2", .32 Safety Hammerless. Are there any date marks on the left frame under the stocks? Very neat revolver.
Special order
I'd be willing to bet that this short barrel was part of a small order of guns for a special purpose. When you compare this to my 2" Colt lightning....Colt offered a 2 1/2" barrel length at that time...Just like Smith & Wesson offered a 3 1/4" barrel. Why bother ordering a barrel length that's only 1/2" less or in your case 1 1/4" less? My factory letter proves it was one of 5 ordered and shipping in January of 1888 to a major distributor in New York. So, with a special order often there was a special purpose for, in this case , the shorter barrel length. It wasn't just personal preference.
There are others out there.
Several years ago I also saw a 2 1/2" barrel double action 2nd model 38. I remember it had that side barrel address also but it's been too long now. I can't remember the details but I remember believing it was real. I bid on it but was too low. One of those regret moments in collecting that you never forget?
When you think about what it would have cost to replace the revolver as compared to sending it back to Smith & Wesson for a re-barrel? I think the re-barrel would have been a more viable option.
Murph
I'd be willing to bet that this short barrel was part of a small order of guns for a special purpose. When you compare this to my 2" Colt lightning....Colt offered a 2 1/2" barrel length at that time...Just like Smith & Wesson offered a 3 1/4" barrel. Why bother ordering a barrel length that's only 1/2" less or in your case 1 1/4" less? My factory letter proves it was one of 5 ordered and shipping in January of 1888 to a major distributor in New York. So, with a special order often there was a special purpose for, in this case , the shorter barrel length. It wasn't just personal preference.
There are others out there.
Several years ago I also saw a 2 1/2" barrel double action 2nd model 38. I remember it had that side barrel address also but it's been too long now. I can't remember the details but I remember believing it was real. I bid on it but was too low. One of those regret moments in collecting that you never forget?
When you think about what it would have cost to replace the revolver as compared to sending it back to Smith & Wesson for a re-barrel? I think the re-barrel would have been a more viable option.
Murph
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