.22/32 HFT firing of high velocity rounds, recessed chambers & heat treated cylinders

[mrcvs]

.22/32 HFT firing of high velocity rounds, recessed chambers & heat treated cylinders

Other threads indicate that larger frame models were heat treated circa 1920. It appears this was not the case with the I-frame .22/32 HFT revolver. It appears that high velocity ammunition can be fired in cylinders of this model that has recessed chambers. That happened circa 1930. I'm guessing ALL cylinders with recessed chambers were heat treated. I'm guessing that some cylinders without recessed chambers were also heat treated in the late 1920's but there's no way to know for sure if they were heat treated or not. So, since all cylinders with recessed chambers were definitively heat treated, that's why it's okay to fire high velocity ammunition in .22/32 HFT revolvers with recessed chambers.

How true is the above argument?

Support, modify, or refute.

 

[mrcvs]

I have a better sense of what I was leading up to after reading this:

High Velocity .22 Long Rifles

Specifically, high velocity ammunition dates from 1937, when it was invested, or at least available commercially.

Because this was not available until 1937, it explains why I-frame revolvers were not heat treated circa 1920, like most other Smith & Wesson revolvers (other than the I-frame).

My first post was created with the assumption that high velocity ammunition was introduced to the late 1920's, but this was a decade too soon.

Which leads to other questions:

1. If high velocity ammunition was not introduced until 1937, why did Smith & Wesson begin heat treating these cylinders circa 1930?

2. Is the recessed chambers just a convenient distinction to determine if high velocity ammunition can be fired in a cylinder, as ALL cylinders with recessed chambers are heat treated? And is it one for one? That is, if recessed, it's heat treated, if not, then not heat treated?

 

[DWalt]

I have no idea where you found "Specifically, high velocity ammunition dates from 1937, when it was invested, or at least available commercially." It is incorrect by about seven years.

High velocity (Hi-Speed) .22 ammunition first appeared in the 1931 Remington ammunition catalog. It likely was available in 1930 as Remington catalogs were published at the end of the prior year.

 

[mrcvs]

I have no idea where you found "Specifically, high velocity ammunition dates from 1937, when it was invested, or at least available commercially." It is incorrect by about seven years.

High velocity (Hi-Speed) .22 ammunition first appeared in the 1931 Remington ammunition catalog. It likely was available in 1930 as Remington catalogs were published at the end of the prior year.

Here:

"The .22 LR completed a smooth transition from black to semi-smokeless to smokeless powder. The 22 LR's case capacity to hold bulky black powder left it with plenty of room to accept new powders for increased velocity. Remington introduced the first high-velocity load in 1937, which fired a 40-grain bullet at about 1,250 fps."

Source: High Velocity .22 Long Rifles

But I thought high velocity .22 LR ammunition was first available no later than 1930, and perhaps available in the late 1920's.

 

[DWalt]

HV .22s did not appear in the 1930 and earlier Remington catalogs. Whoever or whatever Magzter is, is full of it.

Colt modified the Woodsman .22 pistol to use the .22 HV cartridges a couple of years later, I think 1933. Most information says that post-1932 Woodsmans are OK for using .22 HV. And I believe that the earlier ones could be altered to use HV ammo.

 

[mrcvs]

HV .22s did not appear in the 1930 and earlier Remington catalogs. Whoever or whatever Magzter is, is full of it.

Colt modified the Woodsman .22 pistol to use the .22 HV cartridges a couple of years later, I think 1933. Most information says that post-1932 Woodsmans are OK for using .22 HV. And I believe that the earlier ones could be altered to use HV ammo.

No, that's what I thought, late 1920's, maybe 1930. My source stated 1937. We both were wrong.

So the correct answer is 1933.

And so was the design change to recessed chambers coincident with the heat treating of cylinders and was this done circa 1930 and after as the advent of high velocity .22 LR ammunition was anticipated, this coming to fruition in 1932?

 

[mrcvs]

Any thoughts as to if the recessed chambers and heat treated cylinders were exclusively concurrent or if heat treating of the .22/32 HFT revolver accursed about the time recessed chambers were created as a design change? If the change is not concurrent, then there may be some .22/32 HFT revolvers with heat treated cylinders that do not contain recessed chambers, or possibly, although less likely, the reverse. If the reverse is possible in any way or fashion, then that would be cause for concern.

 

[glowe]

I have kept and edited this information over the last couple of years, originally done by Larry J LeBlanc. Edits were additional and better sourced information to end up with a reliable history of the 22.

The home of all rimfire ammunition can be traced back to Europe where Louis-Nicolas Flobert developed the idea of the first fully self-contained metallic cartridge. The Flobert .22 BB was introduced in 1845 and was used as a "parlor gun" within shooting galleries. The Cartridge was extremely anemic, only having about as much muzzle velocity as some toy air rifles.

The .22 Short was the first of the effective .22 rimfire cartridges and is the oldest American commercial self-contained metallic cartridge. It was introduced in 1857 for the Smith & Wesson First Model revolver and intended for serious self-defense.

Then along came the .22 long, it was first seen in 1871 for revolvers and shortly thereafter Remington and Stevens produced rifles in that caliber. Today, the .22 Long ammunition is still being produced by CCI and Winchester, but it is thought by many that there is not much need for it as the short or the long rifle will cover the market and some say it has outlived its usefulness.

The .22 long rifle was developed by the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Company in 1887. It was originally the .22 long case with 5 grains of black powder and a 40 grain bullet. The Peters Cartridge Company is supposed to have first manufactured the long rifle for Stevens.

Remington first introduced the high-velocity long rifle in 1930. Soon came the 40 grain solid point and the 37 grain hollow point, were introduced, and are still available today.

The .22 Magnum was introduced in 1959 by Winchester, but was not used by Winchester until they came out with the Model 61 pump action rifle chambered for it in 1960. The first rifle to be offered in the new chambering was the Marlin Levermatic rifle in 1959.

 

[glowe]

According to "Cartridges of the World" Digest Books, Inc. authored by Frank C Barnes, the first 22LR HV was introduced by Remington in 1930.

Certainly no reason to believe the first box of ammo was available in 1930, but no earlier. I suspect that there was published information about the introduction in 1930, but it is reasonable that the ammo may not have hit the shelves until 1931 or 1932.

 

[JP@AK]

This may or may not be helpful in this discussion, but it is interesting and seems to me to be relevant.

Marlin-Rockwell released patent drawings for the Model 39 in 1919, but the rifles were not produced until the Marlin Firearms Corporation period in the early 1920s.

Early Model 39 rifles received one of two serial sequences: digits with no prefix or digits with an S prefix. However, in 1932, Marlin introduced a modified and strengthened bolt for the Model 39, and the resulting rifles had an HS prefix in the serial number (HS stood for "High Speed."

The company announced that only Model 39 rifles with the HS prefix should be used with high velocity .22 LR ammunition. The purpose of strengthening the bolt was to accommodate pressures in the then-new High Speed .22 LR ammo.

Since that Marlin event took place in 1932, I believe it reflects the recent appearance of higher velocity .22 rimfire cartridges.

 

[murphydog]

This is purely a subjective statement, but I would think a structurally sound .22/32 HFT would be fine with any .22 LR ammunition. Without the recessed chambers there is always the chance of a rim separation (which I have never seen), but the amount of steel in the chamber walls seems more than adequate for any .22 ammunition.

 

[JP@AK]

The .22 Magnum was introduced in 1959 by Winchester, but was not used by Winchester until they came out with the Model 61 pump action rifle chambered for it in 1960. The first rifle to be offered in the new chambering was the Marlin Levermatic rifle in 1959.

Two comments here.

1. Let's not forget the .22 WRF (Winchester Rim Fire). Introduced in 1890 for the Winchester slide action Model 1890, it was intended to be a more powerful option for rimfire rifles than the .22LR (Stevens, 1887). I like to think of it as a very early "magnum" version of the .22 rimfire. It can be safely shot in firearms chambered for the much later .22 WMR.

2. I've always found it fascinating that Winchester introduced the .22 WMR in 1959, but didn't make a firearm to shoot it until the Model 61 Magnum appeared in the 1961 catalog. Gary mentioned the Marlin Levermatic, but it is noteworthy that Smith & Wesson came out with the Model 48 in 1959. So S&W was making a handgun for Winchester's cartridge two years before Winchester made use of its own invention.

 

[Jim Watson]

I once read that when Winchester introduced .22 LR Super Speed (and Western Super X) it was meant for the all steel Winchester Model 61 pump and Model 63 auto and was very hot. That after the first lot, it was toned down maybe 100 fps for ordinary .22s.

 

[rct269]

I believe the significant history of all this came about in the early 1920's with alarming incidents of blown rims with .22 Long Rifle ammunition---predominately involving Remington ammunition. Remington solved the problem more or less immediately by improving the quality of the metal used for the cartridge cases.

S&W's efforts towards protection against such incidents continued, culminating with the introduction of the recessed chamber on the Straight Line single shot in 1925----the first handgun with such a feature.

I'll leave it to the readers to decide which approach was the most effective, noting the best risk management approach is to avoid the risk altogether.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DWalt]

Two comments here.

1. Let's not forget the .22 WRF (Winchester Rim Fire). Introduced in 1890 for the Winchester slide action Model 1890, it was intended to be a more powerful option for rimfire rifles than the .22LR (Stevens, 1887). I like to think of it as a very early "magnum" version of the .22 rimfire. It can be safely shot in firearms chambered for the much later .22 WMR.

Indeed the .22 WRF was more powerful vs. other available "standard velocity".22 RF cartridges of the time. I had both a Winchester Model 1890 rifle and a Colt Police Positive revolver back in my High School days, both chambered in .22 WRF. Both guns are now long gone. I did not shoot either very much, even though the ammunition was still available then, mainly because it was considerably more expensive than .22 Short or .22 LR. However, by then the .22 WRF had already become a more or less obsolete caliber as it was only slightly ballistically superior to the newer .22 LR HV. I have heard that the old-time butchers preferred using .22 WRF for slaughtering livestock as it allegedly did a better job than the standard velocity .22 loads.

Regarding heat treating of the .22/32 revolver cylinders, I have no idea whether that was ever done by S&W or not. I can see no reason why it would have been necessary. There is plenty of metal around the chambers to withstand well beyond the maximum chamber pressure of any .22 RF load without permanent deformation or rupture.

 

[glowe]

Two comments here.

1. Let's not forget the .22 WRF (Winchester Rim Fire) . . .

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that a different sized cartridge than the straight walled 22 rimfire? If I recall correctly, it does not fit in a 22 LR chamber?? I guess I was listing the progression of the 22 cartridge, not the evolution.

 

[JP@AK]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that a different sized cartridge than the straight walled 22 rimfire? If I recall correctly, it does not fit in a 22 LR chamber?? I guess I was listing the progression of the 22 cartridge, not the evolution.

You may be correct, Gary. But the case diameter is the same as the .22 WMR, which is why it can be used in guns that are so-chambered.

I think somewhere around here I still have some WRF cartridges. If I can locate them, I'll check, but I'm pretty sure they won't fit into the cylinder of a .22 LR revolver. But maybe they are only too long. I do have some .22 WMR cartridges. Are they the same diameter as a .22 LR? If so, then the WRF will fit the same chambers.

BTW, I also, long ago, had a Winchester Model 90 in WRF. Rather fun to shoot, but that particular rifle had a shot out barrel. I was lucky to shoot a 12" diameter group.

 

[DWalt]

The .22 WRF used an inside lubricated bullet instead of the heeled bullet of the normal .22 RF. Therefore the case has a slightly greater diameter and will not fit in a .22 LR chamber. It is said to be possible to fire .22 LR in a .22 WRF chamber, but it is not a good idea. I have not tried that, at least not that I can remember. I looked it up, and there was also a later HV version of the .22 WMR made which was somewhat more powerful than the early loading.

 

[paplinker]

Hope this helps the discussion.
This is part of correspondence with a customer wanting to know about heat treating before he bought one of each Outdoorsmans. I own the OD in 22long.

Dated March 1st 1934
D B Wesson-vice president

The historical foundation really is a great asset!!

 

[merl67]

I have shot HV 22 LR in my 22/32 with no ill effects, and I doubt you would blow the gun up shooting the ammo in it. I will say I certainly I do not recommend a steady diet of it. Also accuracy wise standard does much better, and even though the sights are adjustable lots of adjustment has to be done at least on mine to accommodate it. Having done a bit of reloading on centerfire cartridges has brought me to the conclusion that rarely if ever does the fastest load out the barrel results in the best accuracy. Hopefully I haven't veered too far off from the original post.