.22 Magnum Defense?

[max503]

I once shot a coyote square in the ribs, side shot at about 50 yards, with my 22 mag rifle and I never recovered that dawg. That's all I know about it. Other than that its a fun and expensive 200 yard target rifle.

 

[SuperMan]

I recently purchased a Rock Island 1911 XTM .22 magnum, holds 14 +1 rounds. Have run a couple of hundred rounds though it so far.
The light bullets (CCI) don't feed well though it, but the heaver stuff Federal/Winchester 40-50 grain rounds no problem.
The Hornady Critical Defense rounds feed well, no misfires/feeds or problems.
Waiting for a chance for the weather to let up and try some rounds into a wet phone book, my standard old school check for bullet penetration.
No recoil issues, yes it's loud but under serious events noise level isn't a factor.
So far I am impressed.
No not a 158 grain SWC .357, but certainly a viable option.

I have been looking at these big time and the ONLY reason I have not pulled the trigger on one is that the people at RIA in their infinite wisdom left no provisions for an adjustable rear sight.

How is POA vs. POI at 25 yards with standard 40 grain ammo?

Bob

 

[SuperMan]

Hate to belabor this, but a "belly shot" that does not penetrate a major vessel such as the abdominal aorta can have no immediate effect. A gut shot can take hours to kill somebody. Your body will be at the ME office first.


As to .22lr. I've seen forensics on a guy who was shot twice with 40 grain solids. One upper lung, one liver. Lung shot created a serious hemothorax, about 800ml blood. Liver shot 1000ml blood. Decedent went down very quickly and stayed down. (Don't mourn; it was a gang kidnapping interrupted).

The moral: shot placement and penetration are what matter.

"Hate to belabor this, but a "belly shot" that does not penetrate a major vessel such as the abdominal aorta can have no immediate effect. A gut shot can take hours to kill somebody. Your body will be at the ME office first."....REALLY...

One of my classmates at Dallas PD shot a car theft suspect who tried to shoot him in the groin below the navel with a .357 125 JHP....his words to me were, "Bob the guy went down so fast my second round went over his head". The guy survived but had to wear a colostomy bag for the rest of his life...

See my post above about the guy who got shot with the .22 in the same area...turned and went down....got up went ten more feet and went down...and died an hour later. Clipping that artery didn't cause him to go down...but it did kill him.

I have know several other people who have either been shot in or shot someone in the groin area and in every case when right down.

There is a reason in boxing that no one can hit below the belt...do you not think that a fast expanding HP won't do the same...

Don't know where you are getting your theories from but mine come from real people....

Bob

ps...however if you are talking about the area below the diaphragm and above the naval in the stomach/upper intestine area...then my apologies...one can take a hit there and fight back pretty well...

 

[PALADIN85020]

According to "Ballistic by the Inch"....... a .22 mag out of a 16-18 inch barrel has the ft lb of energy of a 9mm...... so my choice is a Ruger American compact rifle .....9 rounds of .22 magnum for 4 and 2 legged varmints ..... for walking in Penn's Woods

I like your choice of the the Ruger American compact in .22 WMR. I wrote an evaluation on this gun in the October, 2018 issue of Dillon's Blue Press. This one is mine.

John

 

[silentflyer]

"I have been looking at these big time and the ONLY reason I have not pulled the trigger on one is that the people at RIA in their infinite wisdom left no provisions for an adjustable rear sight.

How is POA vs. POI at 25 yards with standard 40 grain ammo?"

Had it out yesterday, this one shoots about 2" high and to the left (11 o'clock) at 25 yards with 50 grain Federals, with myself and 3 other guys shooting it, seemed pretty consistent for all of us. After about 300 rounds a couple of FTF, but some Hoppe's # 9 and a bit brushing no more problems.

I have same concerns about the rear sight much prefer adjustable sights, have been corresponding with Dawson Sales about an adjustable replacement.

so far a fun gun

 

[Duckford]

From the general overall perspective, there are a few things to consider. When choosing a set of brakes for your car, do you look at how well the brakes work when they work, or do you look at the times the brakes failed completely? All those times, cherry picked anecdotes, when a 22lr or 22 magnum rimfire stopped someone don't magically alter into all the times they failed to stop someone by some magical law of averages. Great for the times it worked, but they don't save the lives and limbs of the people for whom it failed. Just as not everyone is tough enough to keep fighting after getting hit by ten 9mm Luger rounds, not everyone is going to drop like a stone after getting hit by a rimfire round. "It worked a couple of times I saw" is useful information, it is not a complete argument.

It is still a rimfire round which suffers from greater reliability issues. Even when the bullet expands its still a very poor performer, a 38 Special wadcutter at half the muzzle energy does far better damage. Ideas that "shoot small hit big" are fine on paper, but realities of combat and combat stress mean that you could easily pull poor shots on an attacker in a real life, high stress event. The rimfires offer nothing of advantage, only relative disadvantage. Energy to energy comparisons are absolutely worthless, its how the bullet uses its force that really matters, and a low energy 22 caliber bullet can't use it very well.

In general, people who defend rimfire for self defense when better options are available tend to suffer from affection for an old beloved caliber, not reason based on effective self defense. Then comes the endless stream of cherry picking, goal post moving, and finally straw man "Detractors claim rimfire can't kill, and this single case of fatal rimfire shooting means I'm right and win the argument". Its an objectively inferior choice, don't treat it as anything but.

 

[sigp220.45]

In general, people who defend rimfire for self defense when better options are available tend to suffer from affection for an old beloved caliber, not reason based on effective self defense. Then comes the endless stream of cherry picking, goal post moving, and finally straw man "Detractors claim rimfire can't kill, and this single case of fatal rimfire shooting means I'm right and win the argument". Its an objectively inferior choice, don't treat it as anything but.

I've seen many people shot with the .22 Magnum. It always worked. No cherry picking.

Please fill me in on the people you have seen shot with it where it failed.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I've seen many people shot with the .22 Magnum. It always worked. No cherry picking.

Please fill me in on the people you have seen shot with it where it failed.

As you know, the number of people killed with rimfire ammo annually in any given locale generally meets and occasionally exceeds the number killed with centerfire. Totally a numbers game, with more rimfire in circulation, but they're still fatal . . .

 

[BAM-BAM]

I like your choice of the the Ruger American compact in .22 WMR. I wrote an evaluation on this gun in the October, 2018 issue of Dillon's Blue Press. This one is mine.

John

When I'm going upscale ..... it's a CZ 452FS/mannlicher with a 1-4x20 Leupold. It makes me ; the Ruger American is a great utility rifle I put a Leupold "Pig Plex" 1-4 on it...... add a couple of magazines and a plastic box of CCI ammo and you are good to "grab and go" with 68 rounds on the ATV or SXS.

 

[labworm]

"Knockdown power" is another myth, but I'd a lot rather have five or six rounds of .38 Special +P than seven or eight of .22 Magnum, in the extremely unlikely event that I was forced to defend myself from "two-legged varmints".

Less hurtful to the ears, too.

I may consider hiring you as my bodyguard.

 

[smoothshooter]

Hate to belabor this, but a "belly shot" that does not penetrate a major vessel such as the abdominal aorta can have no immediate effect. A gut shot can take hours to kill somebody. Your body will be at the ME office first.


As to .22lr. I've seen forensics on a guy who was shot twice with 40 grain solids. One upper lung, one liver. Lung shot created a serious hemothorax, about 800ml blood. Liver shot 1000ml blood. Decedent went down very quickly and stayed down. (Don't mourn; it was a gang kidnapping interrupted).

The moral: shot placement and penetration are what matter.

The coon hunter I mentioned in my previous post would beg to differ, if he were still alive.
No major blood vessels or arteries were hit, but there was some significant organ damage.
The revolver he was shot with was his own. It had fallen out of the chest pocket of his bib overalls when he was bent over trying to get between the wires on a barbed wire fence down in a deep holler.
The hammer struck a rock and fired a bullet into his lower intestines before travelling up into the stomach area. He said he collapsed immediately.

 

[safearm]

There are times when I carry a NAA mini-revolver in .22 magnum as I can't really carry anything else. As stated by others, any gun is better than no gun. The .22 magnum may not be the optimum SD cartridge, but it is effective, as long as you consider its limitations. I personally carry the CCI Maxi Mag 30 grain JHP as I've tested it against watermelons (less than optimum medium, but available) and it's been much more effective than other brands, especially Winchester.

Check out this article:
American Rifleman | The .22 Magnum for Self-Defense

 

[The_Truth]

What if there is not enough room in his pocket for a backhoe?

A shovel is much easier to conceal, and weighs a lot less than a backhoe.

Luckily modern marvels of engineering have made it possible to fit a backhoe in your pocket just the same as a shovel Similar weights too!

 

[rich5674]

I'll Take A S&W 351 Please

From reading the posts above from people with real world experience I would have no problem using a 22 mag for SD. The thing is it would only be from a Smith 351. 11 ounces and 7 shots. If I had to shoot and the first shot didn't work (ammo malfunction, miss, aggressor not stopped) the other six rounds will help. My only problem is the 351 cost about $200 more than my 442 38spl.

 

[Old Corp]

Don't have dog in the fight really as I no longer ever carry anything in .22 WMR for SD.
Long ago I did tote a Hi-Standard derringer in .22 WMR as a deep concealment BUG. Later it left that role and became a tacklebox snake gun loaded with shotshells.

Having spent some time working in LGS's, can testify there is an unusual fascination with .22 Mag. handguns for SD.

See - it's REALLY loud. And, well it's a MAGNUM. And, ammo is as expensive as centerfire stuff. But, there's no recoil.
It's........magical!

Really, just kidding, but have observed this oddity in regards to this caliber in handguns more than any other.

I too have investigated many shootings with various .22's.
Of course more with the .22 LR. Results I recall, be they LR or WMR, was all about placement.
Poorly placed mainly inconvenienced and eventually hospitalized the victim.
C.O.M. and CNS hits ended their day right there.

 

[HamHands]

It's not my choice for woods walking but it is my choice for a derringer-in-the-pocket-of-my-robe-at-home carry.

Then, again, any gun when you need it, etc.............

I have to agree... When in the "Woods"... It's warm and toasty .44Specials topped off with Hard Cast "Keith's" from a 3" barreled M24 for me and my girls...

If at home in a robe pocket, sure a .22mag will work but I have guns staged on every level of my house that can be gotten to in 5 seconds if I haul my 240lb frame fast enough to it...

That said, a lot of shart-bags and attempted rapist are walking around with permanent limps or aren't walking around at all because of .22long-rifles from shortie barrels. A .22Mag is certainly more potent for sure! Does that make it the most viable option for self defense? Hell no! But it's better than a Urine filled SuperSoaker/Squirt Gun for sure! If it was my only option I'd opt for CCI Stingers OP!

 

[HamHands]

The .22 Magnum was a popular people-shooting round on the reservations I worked. It certainly stopped every fight I saw it used in, sometimes fatally but always decisively.

I don't think it really matters what load you use.

.22 caliber pills do strange things when they enter the body. Hell, one of the best Presidents of all time of this Great Country was almost ended far too short of his tenure from a "measly" .22caliber pill...

I enjoy your stories SigP220... Thanks for sharing!