25-20 wcf
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I'm no powder expert and have never used Unique but I think that it is more of a pistol powder. I would find a powder that has published data for the 25-20. There are quite a few loads in the Lee manual. It's a nice round but not the easiest to reload.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
Lyman Loading Manual #45, has a Unique load for every cartridge made in the early 70's and some older discontinued ones too. The Obsolete section is where I found this;
From a 20"1892 60 gr Jacketed (Speer)
Brass: Remington
Primer: Remington 6 1/2
Unique 5.0 @ 1535fps to 6.0 @ 1820fps
Accuracy duplication load;
IMR4198 13.0 @ 1821fps
Factory duplication Load;
IMR 4198 14.6 @ 2044 fps (compressed charge)
From my experience with 32-20 and 218 Bee: If you don't have Remington 6 1/2 primers, don't use regular Small Rifle Primers, use any Standard Small Pistol Primer. But it is worth while to buy the Remington 6 1/2, for Hornet family, Bee family or Fireball family rounds! They make a super consistent load!
May I also suggest a IMR4227 loading (in 218 bee and 32-20 they are the accuracy load for almost every bullet weight! always the heavy charge too!):10.0 @ 1672fps-12.0 @2032fps
My 218 Bee with 12.5 of IMR 4227 and a 50 gr jacketed bullet get one hole to 1/4" groups at 100 yards of a rest, and 1/2 groups off hand. Really surprises a lot of people!
In Theory both 218 and 32-20 can be reformed to make 25-20, only use the 218 Bee brass, and best if never fired! The 32-20 ends up with way too much thickness in the neck!
Ivan
From a 20"1892 60 gr Jacketed (Speer)
Brass: Remington
Primer: Remington 6 1/2
Unique 5.0 @ 1535fps to 6.0 @ 1820fps
Accuracy duplication load;
IMR4198 13.0 @ 1821fps
Factory duplication Load;
IMR 4198 14.6 @ 2044 fps (compressed charge)
From my experience with 32-20 and 218 Bee: If you don't have Remington 6 1/2 primers, don't use regular Small Rifle Primers, use any Standard Small Pistol Primer. But it is worth while to buy the Remington 6 1/2, for Hornet family, Bee family or Fireball family rounds! They make a super consistent load!
May I also suggest a IMR4227 loading (in 218 bee and 32-20 they are the accuracy load for almost every bullet weight! always the heavy charge too!):10.0 @ 1672fps-12.0 @2032fps
My 218 Bee with 12.5 of IMR 4227 and a 50 gr jacketed bullet get one hole to 1/4" groups at 100 yards of a rest, and 1/2 groups off hand. Really surprises a lot of people!
In Theory both 218 and 32-20 can be reformed to make 25-20, only use the 218 Bee brass, and best if never fired! The 32-20 ends up with way too much thickness in the neck!
Ivan
25-20
Then I am off to a shaky start. I have thirty remington 25-20 brass and after that I purchased some starline 32-20 to reform in several steps.
I am using Winchester rifle primers. Loaded up six rounds each using 5 gr. Unique, 9 gr. 2400 and 14 gr H322: powders that I have on hand and all used in the 25-20.
If none of them shoot groups decently I will get some 4198 as I can use that in my 222 also.
The only bullet available nowdays is the Hornady 60 jacketed flat point other than that 85 grain cast bullets.
Hopefully one of the powders I loaded will group decently.
mark
Then I am off to a shaky start. I have thirty remington 25-20 brass and after that I purchased some starline 32-20 to reform in several steps.
I am using Winchester rifle primers. Loaded up six rounds each using 5 gr. Unique, 9 gr. 2400 and 14 gr H322: powders that I have on hand and all used in the 25-20.
If none of them shoot groups decently I will get some 4198 as I can use that in my 222 also.
The only bullet available nowdays is the Hornady 60 jacketed flat point other than that 85 grain cast bullets.
Hopefully one of the powders I loaded will group decently.
mark
I use 4198 over a 75 gr. Speer Varmint bullet, which is kind of a spire hollow point with a lead fill. I hope they still make those. Exceptional accuracy out of my 1893 Marlin as far as old eyes can see.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
When your necks are too thick to allow the round to chamber with a loaded bullet, then you will have to turn or ream the neck wall. If they work without that time consuming step, GO FOR IT!
The bulk of my 32-20 brass is Starline from the late 80's/early 90's. The bulk of my 218 brass is Winchester from the late 90'searly 00's. I also have a large pile of used brass from Win and Rem that everybody and their brother had a partial box of stuck in their garage or basement! That whole family of cartridges is suppose to have .010" neck thickness, be careful not to mash too many. A few is normal, <5% but if >10% you need to change your routine. Annealing is such a pain! Feel free to PM me if you want to "talk" things through.
Ivan
The bulk of my 32-20 brass is Starline from the late 80's/early 90's. The bulk of my 218 brass is Winchester from the late 90'searly 00's. I also have a large pile of used brass from Win and Rem that everybody and their brother had a partial box of stuck in their garage or basement! That whole family of cartridges is suppose to have .010" neck thickness, be careful not to mash too many. A few is normal, <5% but if >10% you need to change your routine. Annealing is such a pain! Feel free to PM me if you want to "talk" things through.
Ivan
25-20
My plan is to run them through a friends 32-20 resizing die first to make sure the necks are round. I bought two 7/8-14 x 2 bolts and am going to drill one with a 5/16 (.312) bit and the other with a letter L (.290) then finish with the 25-20 sizing die.
So hopefully will not loose too many. I do not have the equipment to turn the necks but a friend does.
Beginning to think I should have not bought that Marlin 25-20CL but dang I like Marlins.
Mark
My plan is to run them through a friends 32-20 resizing die first to make sure the necks are round. I bought two 7/8-14 x 2 bolts and am going to drill one with a 5/16 (.312) bit and the other with a letter L (.290) then finish with the 25-20 sizing die.
So hopefully will not loose too many. I do not have the equipment to turn the necks but a friend does.
Beginning to think I should have not bought that Marlin 25-20CL but dang I like Marlins.
Mark
I think I saw that video several years ago about turning 32-20 into 25-20. Don't think I tried all that hard but I remember zero success. It's not just step 1 2 3 4 and you have 25-20. Not saying don't try but you might want to start saving up for 25-20 brass on GB.
Bruce51
Member
25-20 brass seems to be available about once a year from Lg Outdoors.
Grab it while you can or you will miss out. The Hornady 60 grain round nose bullet comes around at least twice a year. Set yourself up for notifications from Midway USA.
While loads with Unique will work I have had the best groups from IMR 4198 with both the Speer 75 grain flat nose and the Hornady 60 grain round nose bullets.
Hornady #3 is one good source of load data but I don't think it lists Unique loads.
Ken Waters Pet Loads is probably the best source of data and he did not use Unique powder.
I'm still testing AA #9 with the 60 grain loads with some good and average results.
I'm wondering if Speer will still offer their 75 grain flat nose bullet at a later date. Otherwise the Hornady 60 grain and the cast 85 grain is about all there is available.
BLM
Grab it while you can or you will miss out. The Hornady 60 grain round nose bullet comes around at least twice a year. Set yourself up for notifications from Midway USA.
While loads with Unique will work I have had the best groups from IMR 4198 with both the Speer 75 grain flat nose and the Hornady 60 grain round nose bullets.
Hornady #3 is one good source of load data but I don't think it lists Unique loads.
Ken Waters Pet Loads is probably the best source of data and he did not use Unique powder.
I'm still testing AA #9 with the 60 grain loads with some good and average results.
I'm wondering if Speer will still offer their 75 grain flat nose bullet at a later date. Otherwise the Hornady 60 grain and the cast 85 grain is about all there is available.
BLM
Bruce51
Member
Why is this round not easy to reload? Honestly it is not a problem at all.
blm
As far as loads with Unique Lyman only lists cast bullets. 4.5 - 5 grains with 70-85 grain bullets.
With its limited case capacity and small bore diameter 5-6 grains of Unique would be as as as I would go with a 60 grain bullet. Pressure with Unique can really increase rapidly and you don't want to exceed the 28,000 psi operating pressure of the 25-20.
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Ivan the Butcher
Member
The thin neck wall thickness. If the cases very in length much, when you roll crimp the neck and upper sidewalls crumple and bump out like nobody's business! (the same problem for all the thin neck wall cases)
Ivan
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
My .25-20 is a 1914 vintage Winchester Model 1892. I try and treat it a bit gently due to its 105 years of age.
I load cast bullets, a 65-grain RNFP-GC and a 95-grain RNFP-GC. IMR-4198 gives me very good performance with both. I don't try to hot rod the old rifle, usually staying a good 10% below book max charges. The 95-grain bullet takes up a lot of case interior space, so I keep the charges at a level that allows seating without compressing the powder.
A fun cartridge to shoot. Easy enough to reload as long as you keep in mind the relatively thin case and neck walls. I use the Lyman M-die for neck expansion and I think it will allow nearly perpetual case life with mild loads.
Enjoy!
I load cast bullets, a 65-grain RNFP-GC and a 95-grain RNFP-GC. IMR-4198 gives me very good performance with both. I don't try to hot rod the old rifle, usually staying a good 10% below book max charges. The 95-grain bullet takes up a lot of case interior space, so I keep the charges at a level that allows seating without compressing the powder.
A fun cartridge to shoot. Easy enough to reload as long as you keep in mind the relatively thin case and neck walls. I use the Lyman M-die for neck expansion and I think it will allow nearly perpetual case life with mild loads.
Enjoy!
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Don't know if this excerpt from the SASS Wire regarding 25-20 is helpful or not....
I know this thread hasn't had any activity in a couple of months, but I thought I would throw my two cents in anyways.
The 25-20 is very easy to reload for and except for maybe jacketed bullets, reloading components are easily available. Cast bullets are available for as low as $40.00 per 500 at MidwayUSA. Starline brass sells 500pcs & 1000pcs of 32-20 brass for $111.50 & $193.00 shipped. The brass uses small pistol primers which are easily available. Several good powders are readily available as well.
Forming the 32-20 brass into 25-20 brass:
Step 1:
Items needed - Redding Trim Die 25-20 WCF - Redding #: 83218, Redding Extended Shellholder #3E - Redding #: 11503, Imperial Case Sizing Wax
*Please Note: You can use a 25-20 Full Length Sizing Die instead of the Redding 25-20 Trim Die, but I use this method because I also shoot 218 Bee and I go a few extra steps after forming the 25-20 brass to continue forming the brass into 218 Bee brass.
Put the Redding Trim Die 25-20 WCF in your press and use the Redding Extended Shellholder #3E with this die.
Rub a little dab of the Imperial Case Sizing Wax on your thumb and index finger, a little goes a long way as you should get 10 plus cases lubed. As you grab a 32-20 case, rub the case neck and mouth between your lubed thumb and index finger and place the case in the Redding Extended Shellholder #3. Slowiy insert the case into the Redding 25-20 WCF Trim Die. Stop when the case has been inserted all the way as you will feel the case meet hard resistence and you will see the top of the case mouth level or almost level with the edge of the hole in the Redding 25-20 WCF Trim Die. Slowly slide the case out of the Redding 25-20 WCF Trim Die. You shouldn't have any issues with creases, splits, or dents in the case, although a case here and there may get a crease in it. 2-3 cases out of 100 cases got a crease in them when I did this step on my first try forming this brass. Out of 500 cases, I only managed to screw up 19 cases throughout the entire process on my first time around.
Step 2:
Items needed: Lee Pacesetter 3-Die Set 25-20 WCF - Lee #: 90750 or any 2 to 3 Die set in 25-20 WCF caliber
Lee includes a shellholder with this set, if you are using another die set, you will need the shellholder. In this case it is Lee's #6 shellholder.
Put the 25-20 WCF full length sizing die in your press and use the appropriate shell holder. Do Not Use The Redding Extended #3E Shellholder For This Step!
Slowly run the newly formed case into the 25-20 WCF full length sizing die and slowly slide the case out of the die. Inspect the case to make sure there are no dents or creases. You should now have a case that you can load for your 25-20 rifle.
As far as cost goes, very reasonable for 500 cartridges. The cost breakdown below assumes you already have a press and the dies.
$39.50 - Meister Hard Cast Bullets 25-20 WCF (258 Diameter) 85 Grain Lead Flat Nose Box of 500
$111.50 - 500pcs Starline 32-20 brass -Starline.Com
$31.50 - FEDERAL PRIMER SMALL PISTOL 1000/BX
$25.00 - 1lb of Powder, Hodgdon HS-6 or your choice of powders available for this load.
$10.00 - Shipping, not including primers and powder assuming you can pick these up locally.
**$28.50 - Hazmat fee added to shipping if you have primers or powder shipped to you.
So for around $220.00 you can form the brass and reload your own 25-20 for 500 cartridges, with primers and powder picked up locally.
**Around $250.00 for 500 cartridges if you have to have the primers and powder shipped to you.
At a cost of $0.44 - $0.50 per cartridge to reload your own or a cost of $1.25 - $1.50 per cartridge minimum for factory ammo when you can find it.
I have three Marlin 1894CL's, one in 32-20, one in 25-20, and one in 218 Bee. I use Starline's 32-20 brass in all three rifles. I just form the 32-20 brass into 25-20 brass and 218 Bee brass. If I didn't form the brass, I wouldn't be able to shoot these rifles and they are just too much fun to shoot to let them sit in the safe looking pretty.
I hope this helps someone on here that is wanting to shoot their 25-20 WCF but hasn't been able to.
Randy
I know this thread hasn't had any activity in a couple of months, but I thought I would throw my two cents in anyways.
The 25-20 is very easy to reload for and except for maybe jacketed bullets, reloading components are easily available. Cast bullets are available for as low as $40.00 per 500 at MidwayUSA. Starline brass sells 500pcs & 1000pcs of 32-20 brass for $111.50 & $193.00 shipped. The brass uses small pistol primers which are easily available. Several good powders are readily available as well.
Forming the 32-20 brass into 25-20 brass:
Step 1:
Items needed - Redding Trim Die 25-20 WCF - Redding #: 83218, Redding Extended Shellholder #3E - Redding #: 11503, Imperial Case Sizing Wax
*Please Note: You can use a 25-20 Full Length Sizing Die instead of the Redding 25-20 Trim Die, but I use this method because I also shoot 218 Bee and I go a few extra steps after forming the 25-20 brass to continue forming the brass into 218 Bee brass.
Put the Redding Trim Die 25-20 WCF in your press and use the Redding Extended Shellholder #3E with this die.
Rub a little dab of the Imperial Case Sizing Wax on your thumb and index finger, a little goes a long way as you should get 10 plus cases lubed. As you grab a 32-20 case, rub the case neck and mouth between your lubed thumb and index finger and place the case in the Redding Extended Shellholder #3. Slowiy insert the case into the Redding 25-20 WCF Trim Die. Stop when the case has been inserted all the way as you will feel the case meet hard resistence and you will see the top of the case mouth level or almost level with the edge of the hole in the Redding 25-20 WCF Trim Die. Slowly slide the case out of the Redding 25-20 WCF Trim Die. You shouldn't have any issues with creases, splits, or dents in the case, although a case here and there may get a crease in it. 2-3 cases out of 100 cases got a crease in them when I did this step on my first try forming this brass. Out of 500 cases, I only managed to screw up 19 cases throughout the entire process on my first time around.
Step 2:
Items needed: Lee Pacesetter 3-Die Set 25-20 WCF - Lee #: 90750 or any 2 to 3 Die set in 25-20 WCF caliber
Lee includes a shellholder with this set, if you are using another die set, you will need the shellholder. In this case it is Lee's #6 shellholder.
Put the 25-20 WCF full length sizing die in your press and use the appropriate shell holder. Do Not Use The Redding Extended #3E Shellholder For This Step!
Slowly run the newly formed case into the 25-20 WCF full length sizing die and slowly slide the case out of the die. Inspect the case to make sure there are no dents or creases. You should now have a case that you can load for your 25-20 rifle.
As far as cost goes, very reasonable for 500 cartridges. The cost breakdown below assumes you already have a press and the dies.
$39.50 - Meister Hard Cast Bullets 25-20 WCF (258 Diameter) 85 Grain Lead Flat Nose Box of 500
$111.50 - 500pcs Starline 32-20 brass -Starline.Com
$31.50 - FEDERAL PRIMER SMALL PISTOL 1000/BX
$25.00 - 1lb of Powder, Hodgdon HS-6 or your choice of powders available for this load.
$10.00 - Shipping, not including primers and powder assuming you can pick these up locally.
**$28.50 - Hazmat fee added to shipping if you have primers or powder shipped to you.
So for around $220.00 you can form the brass and reload your own 25-20 for 500 cartridges, with primers and powder picked up locally.
**Around $250.00 for 500 cartridges if you have to have the primers and powder shipped to you.
At a cost of $0.44 - $0.50 per cartridge to reload your own or a cost of $1.25 - $1.50 per cartridge minimum for factory ammo when you can find it.
I have three Marlin 1894CL's, one in 32-20, one in 25-20, and one in 218 Bee. I use Starline's 32-20 brass in all three rifles. I just form the 32-20 brass into 25-20 brass and 218 Bee brass. If I didn't form the brass, I wouldn't be able to shoot these rifles and they are just too much fun to shoot to let them sit in the safe looking pretty.
I hope this helps someone on here that is wanting to shoot their 25-20 WCF but hasn't been able to.
Randy
I've never had one of the 25/20 remakes. The older Wins, Mar and Savs all shoot cast bullets much better than .257" factory jacketed bullets. I have loaded cast & Unique for years. Then again I'm not interested in anything more than more than the old factory duplication loads in the old guns. I've a good supply of brass and have not reformed from 32/20.
DWalt
Member
In my 41st Lyman reloading handbook, the only loads given for the .25-20 using a 60 grain jacketed bullet are: 9.6 to 11.5 grains 2400, and 9.7 to 12.7 grains of IMR 4227. MVs are in the 1800-2200 ft/sec range (min and max loads). Both of those propellants are still available. The performance of H4227 is indistinguishable from IMR 4227 if you cannot find it. 4227 (H or IMR) is a very versatile propellant for almost any small capacity rifle cases using jacketed bullets, and is very good for lead bullet loads in any size rifle case. It meters well, and deserves to be much more popular than it is.
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Bruce51
Member
Yes I have known this and was just trying to make a point. I must have a soft touch as I have not ruined a single case and I don't use an M die even for cast bullets.
Now 30-30 cases seem to give me the most grief getting the lube just right for sizing.
Lots of good info here and I may try 2400 or 4227 in the future I'm amazed at the different POI with just small powder changes.
blm
BLM, you're not using my fingers. 
My Redding dies are just a two die set, no expander. I thought that would be okay since I didn't want to overwork the thin necks. I do bevel them and in general that's okay but I do occasionally snag the rim when seating the bullet. Not very often, just enough to be irritating. I think I've got a couple of hundred left so I shouldn't complain, probably a life time supply.
Now .30 Mauser is just a killer. I load it for a 100 year old Mauser broomhandle and like to keep them lite. The neck is virtually nothing so there is very little contact between the case and the bullet and very hard to get any crimp. I guess I just never have found the sweet spot with the crimp.
My Redding dies are just a two die set, no expander. I thought that would be okay since I didn't want to overwork the thin necks. I do bevel them and in general that's okay but I do occasionally snag the rim when seating the bullet. Not very often, just enough to be irritating. I think I've got a couple of hundred left so I shouldn't complain, probably a life time supply.
Now .30 Mauser is just a killer. I load it for a 100 year old Mauser broomhandle and like to keep them lite. The neck is virtually nothing so there is very little contact between the case and the bullet and very hard to get any crimp. I guess I just never have found the sweet spot with the crimp.
The Hornady manual #2 (an old one from 1973) only lists 2400, 630, and 4227 with the 60 gr. jacketed soft point. Max velocity of 2200 fps is obtained with 11.5 gr. of 2400. I suspect Unique will be a little too fast for optimum use with this bullet but it should be fine if you want to load a heavier cast bullet. Back in the day, 4227 was considered THE smokeless powder for use in the 25/20 and that is what I use today. I mostly use the 86 gr. cast bullets at around 1400 fps. This makes a terrific turkey and small game load and destroys almost no meat at all.
By the way, I've had good luck forming 25/20 brass from 32/20 by first partially forming the case in the 25/20 seating die (with the seating stem removed). Use only minimal lubricant and run the case into that die first. This will partially form it. Then run the case into the 25/20 sizing die for final form. I generally lose no more than 2 or 3 cases per hundred this way. The trick is not to use too much lube during the initial forming in the seater die.
By the way, I've had good luck forming 25/20 brass from 32/20 by first partially forming the case in the 25/20 seating die (with the seating stem removed). Use only minimal lubricant and run the case into that die first. This will partially form it. Then run the case into the 25/20 sizing die for final form. I generally lose no more than 2 or 3 cases per hundred this way. The trick is not to use too much lube during the initial forming in the seater die.
bbqncigars
Member
My Marlin really likes a coated 85gr boolit over 5.5gr of 2400. For an exhaustive (and exhausting) coverage of reloading this wonderful round, the marlinowners forum has a 148 page thread under the reloading subforum.
