25-5 45 colt oversized cylinder chambers

[drcwks]

Hi,
I'm sorry if I'm duplicating info that is already in a thread. I am pretty good with search engines but there MUST be a trick to narrow the search down.

My questions is. I remember people in the forum saying that the S&W model 25-5 45 colt N400,000 to N800,000 randomly have oversized chambers in the cylinders. MORE than 2-3 members said to use a 45 colt bullet and drop it through the chamber and it SHOULD have a drag at the end. I was just at a gun show and I had my bullet with me and told the dealer is the bullet dragged at the end in the chambers I would buy the mint 25-5. Well the bullet dropped so quickly through the chamber. NO drag at all.

Is THIS really a test for over sized chambers. I think the bullet mics out at .452. I hope I didn't pass up a nice 25-5 like i've wanted for some time if there is a fallacy in the bullet test.

The people in the forum had said the oversized chambers caused accuracy issues. Maybe the bullet didn't feed into the forcing cone as well as a tighter fit.
I'm still learning about revolvers for the last 2 years and I am hooked but being a little more cautious on revolvers.

Sorry if this has been answered before.

 

[GypsmJim]

I bought my 25-5 before I read about the oversize chambers. Since it was unfired and already 33 years old and the price was cheap how could I say no?

I reload, so I don't buy factory ammo anyway. Changing to 0.454 boolits made the 25-5 a tack driver. I have 3 other .45 Colts and my new loads work better in all the other revolvers as well.

 

[Walter Rego]

A more accurate check would be to have a few pin gauges with you, in sizes .452" through .456". Or at least to be sure what size bullet you have in your pocket.

When S&W announced the Model 25-5 was going back into production in the early 1980's I ordered one right away. It was a beautiful gun. And also had .456" throats. I couldn't get it to shoot well with jacketed .452" bullets or .454" cast bullets which leaded badly so I ended up getting rid of it.

I understand that S&W eventually started manufacturing them with smaller throats, I believe it was in the later 1980's. If the gun you were looking at had a pinned barrel the chances were it had oversized throats.

 

[glenwolde]

First I think we are talking about oversized throats, not chambers. Yes a bullet can be used but the most common method is to try and push a bullet through the throat from the front of the cylinder. If it will pass through the throat with moderate finger pressure it's good. If it falls through the throat with no assistance it's too big. If you can't press it in at all it's too small but then they are easy to open up.

Inside pin gauges are even better. A class Z .45XX pin gauge from McMaster-Carr is $5.64. Plus shipping.

 

[drcwks]

I bought my 25-5 before I read about the oversize chambers. Since it was unfired and already 33 years old and the price was cheap how could I say no?

I reload, so I don't buy factory ammo anyway. Changing to 0.454 boolits made the 25-5 a tack driver. I have 3 other .45 Colts and my new loads work better in all the other revolvers as well.

Wish I would have learned to reload years ago. Thanks for the info. Mint shape @ $1,000 out the door at show. No wood case or box.

 

[drcwks]

A more accurate check would be to have a few pin gauges with you, in sizes .452" through .456". Or at least to be sure what size bullet you have in your pocket.

When S&W announced the Model 25-5 was going back into production in the early 1980's I ordered one right away. It was a beautiful gun. And also had .456" throats. I couldn't get it to shoot well with jacketed .452" bullets or .454" cast bullets which leaded badly so I ended up getting rid of it.

I understand that S&W eventually started manufacturing them with smaller throats, I believe it was in the later 1980's. If the gun you were looking at had a pinned barrel the chances were it had oversized throats.

Yes it was pinned. S/N 71x,xxx so 1980?. I just put my calipers on bullet again and was .4525 Beauty of a revolver. BUT had I bought that I couldn't have purchase my 29-2 LOW 12x,xxx so hoping 1973-74 for never fired 29-2.

 

[rockquarry]

I had two early guns; both had oversize throats. I had a '60s four-cavity Lyman mould for the popular Lyman 454424 design. As cast bullets were about .456", maybe a hair larger. I ran these through a .461" sizing die for the .45-70 cartridge, so bullet were lubed only and not sized. This will improve accuracy but you almost have to be a bullet caster to get the right sized bullets.

.454" bullets will work fine IF you'll develop a load where the bullet will obturate. The alloy needs to be right for the pressure/ velocity. Takes some doing, but it will work. However, if you don't enjoy load development, it's not recommended.

After more than forty years of working with several .45 Colts, including the two 25-5s, I lost all interest in the cartridge, much preferring the ballistically identical .44 Special. Got rid of everything .45 Colt.

 

[Muley Gil]

S&W M25-5, 4” blue, # N697079, shipped in May 1980.

I roundbutted it not long after I bought it.

 

[steelslaver]

I have measured throats as large as .458. Mostly I make my own 45 colt cylinders from 44 mag cylinders so I know I end up with .452 throats. But, I have also found 44 mag cylinders from .428 to .432.

.454 bullets will help with oversized throats as will jacketed bullets.

I run unsized 220 gr round nose bullets in my 455s and they do alright

 

[drcwks]

First I think we are talking about oversized throats, not chambers. Yes a bullet can be used but the most common method is to try and push a bullet through the throat from the front of the cylinder. If it will pass through the throat with moderate finger pressure it's good. If it falls through the throat with no assistance it's too big. If you can't press it in at all it's too small but then they are easy to open up.

Inside pin gauges are even better. A class Z .45XX pin gauge from McMaster-Carr is $5.64. Plus shipping.

Thanks for the terminology lesson. I'm still learning about revolvers. Had to do a quick google throat vs chamber and video explained if from a hand loader perspective. I keep forgetting the chamber steps down at the end even though the cartridge indexes against the recessed plane and the end (throat) I completely understand that should be the dimension that is important. I do have some hole gauges and the "T" spring loaded gauges. But seeing how this bullet didn't slow down a bit I think I made the right decision not to purchase it. But I understand now to focus on the throat area.

 

[drcwks]

I have measured throats as large as .458. Mostly I make my own 45 colt cylinders from 44 mag cylinders so I know I end up with .452 throats. But, I have also found 44 mag cylinders from .428 to .432.

.454 bullets will help with oversized throats as will jacketed bullets.

I run unsized 220 gr round nose bullets in my 455s and they do alright

Heck, don't tell me I have to worry about throat sizes on ALL revolvers now. What has happened to to quality control? Thanks for the info

 

[drcwks]

I had two early guns; both had oversize throats. I had a '60s four-cavity Lyman mould for the popular Lyman 454424 design. As cast bullets were about .456", maybe a hair larger. I ran these through a .461" sizing die for the .45-70 cartridge, so bullet were lubed only and not sized. This will improve accuracy but you almost have to be a bullet caster to get the right sized bullets.

.454" bullets will work fine IF you'll develop a load where the bullet will obturate. The alloy needs to be right for the pressure/ velocity. Takes some doing, but it will work. However, if you don't enjoy load development, it's not recommended.

After more than forty years of working with several .45 Colts, including the two 25-5s, I lost all interest in the cartridge, much preferring the ballistically identical .44 Special. Got rid of everything .45 Colt.

Thanks for the info. Since I'm still new to the revolver world my first revolvers were Colts SAA so will always have that caliber. But I will have to investigate the 44 special only I think 45 colt ammo is easier to find than 44 special but since I have never tried that cartridge, I'll have to get some for my 29-2 just to see the difference on how much it kicks.

 

[rockquarry]

Thanks for the info. Since I'm still new to the revolver world my first revolvers were Colts SAA so will always have that caliber. But I will have to investigate the 44 special only I think 45 colt ammo is easier to find than 44 special but since I have never tried that cartridge, I'll have to get some for my 29-2 just to see the difference on how much it kicks.

Many of us have had an interest in the .45 Colt, but it's largely a nostalgic interest more than anything else. For my purposes, the .45 Colt offers no advantages over the .44 Special, but shoot what you like; I'm not trying to convert anyone. A 29-2 has a much heavier barrel than a 24-type .44 Special and the recoil will be slightly less with the 29. However, the .44 Special is no more a hard kicker than the .45 Colt unless they are loaded hot.

 

[steelslaver]

Heck, don't tell me I have to worry about throat sizes on ALL revolvers now. What has happened to to quality control? Thanks for the info

The .428 was a recent manufacture. The ones that were .431 and .432 were all way earlier recessed ones. The .428 throat could be taken care of very easily with a reamer. Metal isn't hard to remove. The .431 and .432 cylinders are stuck as it is harder to put metal back on

But there is a lot more to it than just throat size. Slightly over sized chambers or under sized brass, over or under cut forcing cones alignment of ALL the chambers in cylinder (I have measured and they are NOT all uniformly spaced.)

When a gun has brass that fits the chambers well, has uniform lock up, forcing cone etc. it may well shoot as well with slightly over sized throat as as another with some other small tolerances all stacking wrong.

Most guns shoot way better than most shooters shoot.

My Ransom Rest proves that.

 

[GypsmJim]

First I think we are talking about oversized throats, not chambers. Yes a bullet can be used but the most common method is to try and push a bullet through the throat from the front of the cylinder. If it will pass through the throat with moderate finger pressure it's good. If it falls through the throat with no assistance it's too big. If you can't press it in at all it's too small but then they are easy to open up.

Inside pin gauges are even better. A class Z .45XX pin gauge from McMaster-Carr is $5.64. Plus shipping.

Yes of course, I know better. Brain fart after reading "chamber".

I just can't get over "45 Long Colt". (yes I know better there too) I DO shoot 44 Special and 41 Special and have one of each. There's just something about the 'ole Colt Forty Five.

BTW, my 25-5 is in the N679xxx range and my throats ARE 0.454. My 254 gr. boolits are 12 BH.

 

[Hair Trigger]

My M25-5 N8242xx shoots as accurately as my other S&W's, the weak link being me. A .452 bullet doesn't fall through my chamber throats, but it slides through fairly easily when pushed, so I figure the throats are .453-.454". The feel when I push the bullet through the throat is exactly the same as when I push the same bullet through the throats on my Uberti SAA clone, no more, no less resistance. It's a great shooting revolver and groups similarly to my M25-5 at 15-25 yards and has a barrel 1-1/2" longer.

 

[glenwolde]

If the throats are oversized just walk away. That's the one thing that is hard to overcome. If it's cheap enough maybe it pays to swap the cylinder out.

 

[drcwks]

If the throats are oversized just walk away. That's the one thing that is hard to overcome. If it's cheap enough maybe it pays to swap the cylinder out.

What I don't understand is why S&W didn't take care of the problem and issue new cylinders to their customers if they complained.

Thanks everyone for replying so quickly. I learned a lot from everyone.
I won't be going back to the show tomorrow unless a dealer comes through with antique ammo for my S&W .38-44 New Model 3 target top break...... or my .38-44 HD post war.

 

[rockquarry]

The .428 was a recent manufacture. The ones that were .431 and .432 were all way earlier recessed ones. The .428 throat could be taken care of very easily with a reamer. Metal isn't hard to remove. The .431 and .432 cylinders are stuck as it is harder to put metal back on

But there is a lot more to it than just throat size. Slightly over sized chambers or under sized brass, over or under cut forcing cones alignment of ALL the chambers in cylinder (I have measured and they are NOT all uniformly spaced.)

When a gun has brass that fits the chambers well, has uniform lock up, forcing cone etc. it may well shoot as well with slightly over sized throat as as another with some other small tolerances all stacking wrong.

Most guns shoot way better than most shooters shoot.

My Ransom Rest proves that.

I've found my 29-2, 29-3, and three 24-3s all work best with .432" bullets. I've had all these revolvers a long time, but I did have to get three or four bullets moulds opened up to cast the larger diameter bullets needed.

 

[rct269]

Heck, don't tell me I have to worry about throat sizes on ALL revolvers now. What has happened to to quality control? Thanks for the info

"What has happened to quality control?"

That which has happened to quality control is in line with that which has happened to any and everything else---all in line with a change in philosophy------a change from what it was to what it is.

There are two philosophies extant among the world's manufacturers:

1. We will be successful if we build the best possible product for the price.

2. We will be successful if we build the product at the lowest possible cost.

I imagine there will be no argument S&W held with Philosophy #1 from 1857 on into the mid 20th century. It was at that point it began to change.

It has continued to change.

I trust this answers your question.

Damn shame, too!!

Ralph Tremaine