25-5 45 colt oversized cylinder chambers

[6string]

Heck, don't tell me I have to worry about throat sizes on ALL revolvers now. What has happened to to quality control? Thanks for the info

Keep in mind that what we think of as "standard" throat sizes were not always the case. Claiming .429" is standard for .44 cal, or .452" is standard for .45 cal is an historically uninformed statement.
In Phil Sharpe's Handloading book from the 1930s, he provides bullet diameters of factory loads from all the major manufacturers for all of the standard chamberings.
For example, with 44 Special, all of the factory ammo fell into a range from .431"-.433".
When S&W first offered the 1950 & 1955 .45 cal target revolvers, they were throated from .452"-.453" so they shot well with .45 ACP National Match 230 gr. ammo. The chamber length was also tight, to control headspacing that was based on the case mouth not the rim.
If you reload for these revolvers and are not very fastidious about case length and cast bullet diameter, they can jam when the cylinder rotates. S&W "solved" the problem by cutting oversized dimensions. By solved, I mean they stopped the complaining about malfunctions.
It's not a quality control issue, it's a customer relations issue.
Who do you listen to?
Accuracy-minded shooters who are also bullet casters and reloaders? Or, your average slob who doesn't measure components, or handload, and just wants to blast away on the weekend?
Tough call!
Bottom line: If you want the best accuracy out of .44 and .45 caliber S&W revolvers, you will have to take strict measurements for your particular gun and load accordingly.

 

[glenwolde]

The .428 was a recent manufacture. The ones that were .431 and .432 were all way earlier recessed ones. The .428 throat could be taken care of very easily with a reamer. Metal isn't hard to remove. The .431 and .432 cylinders are stuck as it is harder to put metal back on

But there is a lot more to it than just throat size. Slightly over sized chambers or under sized brass, over or under cut forcing cones alignment of ALL the chambers in cylinder (I have measured and they are NOT all uniformly spaced.)

When a gun has brass that fits the chambers well, has uniform lock up, forcing cone etc. it may well shoot as well with slightly over sized throat as as another with some other small tolerances all stacking wrong.

Most guns shoot way better than most shooters shoot.

My Ransom Rest proves that.

No doubt, throat size is not the only thing that affects accuracy. But it sure is an easy one to check for on the spot whereas the other examples you give require more expertise and yet more tools. In your example of wide throats vs tolerance stacking being equal, would either have accuracy considered good? I have never had the pleasure of using a Ransom Rest. In the past I've shot a lot from the bench and I know there's still human error in that. What would you consider good accuracy for a vintage stock revolver in like-new condition from a Ransom Rest?

I agree that most guns shoot better than most shooters. But that is as it should be. I know I need as much help as I can get!

 

[reddog81]

It's not a quality control issue, it's a customer relations issue.
Who do you listen to?
Accuracy-minded shooters who are also bullet casters and reloaders? Or, your average slob who doesn't measure components, or handload, and just wants to blast away on the weekend?
Tough call!.

I have a 25-5 in the N659XXX range with .457 throats. Who was that one built for? People who wanted to use 45-70 bullets in .45 Colt?

 

[sceva]

As a general rule the correct sized throats started with the non-pinned barrels. The 25-5 I owned (about 1983 vintage) was non-pinned and had correctly sized throats. It was very accurate.

 

[gdogs]

I think maybe we're losing sight of one thing, how accurate do you require it to be? I've got a 25-5 that I picked up well over a decade ago, and before I knew anything about them having over sized throats. A jacketed bullet will drop right through the cylinder. I've only ever shot it with jacketed bullets and I've never experienced a day at the range where it didn't shoot as well as I require. Which is to say, minute of man at 25 yards. There are plenty of members here that shoot one hole groups (or strive to), I'm just not one of them - though I do consider myself a pretty decent shot. Practical accuracy is all that matters to me in a gun like this. And while it isn't the most accurate handgun i own, I would buy it again knowing what I know now.

 

[steelslaver]

I believe there is a way you could fix a cylinder with over sized throats. Ream every other throat to 9/16" just short of the case mouth ledge, then have inserts with a .452 bore and .563OD made up. Put inserts on dry ice and warm cylinder in oven to 450f. Press shrunk inserts in reamed throats. Then do the other 3.

But, I have found multiple 44mag cylinders on ebay for less than $100. A couple hours, a can of spray brake cleaner and some rapid tap and I have a perfect 45 colt cylinder.

I set my mill vise up with brass pads and a set or short parallels. Take the cylinder and use a stub of an ejector rod to lock it down, place a couple 44s in chambers and lock it in vise. Install a spud in my mill that is a perfect fit in 44 mag chamber. Line up bed so spud goes in chamber with zero drag. Change spud to a .452 reamer with a .429 pilot oil it and ream to .452. It doesn't remove anything but throat material as a 44 chamber is .457. Change to 45 colt reamer. Spray out chamber and oil reamer. Cut about 1/4 depth, remove spray reamer and then chamber, oil, ream another 1/4 repeat until complete. Spray clean. Turn cylinder one chamber and leave slightly loose in vise. Install spud and run into chamber, tighten vise and check for zero drag, ream to .452, then colt, repeat, repeat until all 6 are done. Clean up well. There will be a tiny burr around the face of each chamber, wipe that off with a fine diamond file. Done

I have 8 S&W 45 colts. Only two of them have a factory cylinders and one of those is a 455 TL that already been reamed and partially recessed to colt when I found it.

How accurate should they be. At 25 yards you should be able to easily hide the complete group behind a playing card and 45 make big holes and I should be able to kill a deer with one at 100yards if I can do my part. I need a rest, but anymore even with a rifle I carry one of those collapsible forked sticks. I am not as steady as I once was and I was never great off hand. Sitting or kneeling I don't miss much and prone almost never. But, now days if I laid down in the field I would need a rifle just to help me get back up. LOL

 

[cowboy4evr]

People always relate " leading " the barrel as related to oversize throats with S&W 25's . I had a S&W 25-10 , 6" barrel . It had throats that measured .453 . The accuracy was poor and it leaded the barrel . When I pushed a soft lead slug down the barrel it came to a " firm " stop where the barrel threads onto the frame . I was able to tap it on through , then measured it . It had been down sized to .447, the groove diameter of the barrel was .453 . That's quite a tight spot , a 6 thousandths " choke " . It happens tightening the barrel and indexing the front sight to the rear sight . It took over 60 rounds of fire lap bullets to remove it . I also had a taller front sight installed and it became a real tack driver with POA=POI with the new front sight . Regards Paul

 

[stansdds]

It's not just cylinder throat diameter that determines accuracy or leading. Perfect throats combined with a barrel that has a roughly machined throat, rough bore surfaces, or a constriction is likely to be less accurate and have more leading than a revolver with oversize throats and a perfect barrel.

 

[glenwolde]

I believe there is a way you could fix a cylinder with over sized throats. Ream every other throat to 9/16" just short of the case mouth ledge, then have inserts with a .452 bore and .563OD made up. Put inserts on dry ice and warm cylinder in oven to 450f. Press shrunk inserts in reamed throats. Then do the other 3.

But, I have found multiple 44mag cylinders on ebay for less than $100. A couple hours, a can of spray brake cleaner and some rabid tap and I have a perfect 45 colt cylinder.

I set my mill vise up with brass pads and a set or short parallels. Take the cylinder and use a stub of an ejector rod to lock it down, place a couple 44s in chambers and lock it in vise. Install a spud in my mill that is a perfect fit in 44 mag chamber. Line up bed so spud goes in chamber with zero drag. Change spud to a .452 reamer with a .429 pilot oil it and ream to .452. It doesn't remove anything but throat material as a 44 chamber is .457. Change to 45 colt reamer. Spray out chamber and oil reamer. Cut about 1/4 depth, remove spray reamer and then chamber, oil, ream another 1/4 repeat until complete. Spray clean. Turn cylinder one chamber and leave slightly loose in vise. Install spud and run into chamber, tighten vise and check for zero drag, ream to .452, then colt, repeat, repeat until all 6 are done. Clean up well. There will be a tiny burr around the face of each chamber, wipe that off with a fine diamond file. Done

I have 8 S&W 45 colts. Only two of them have a factory cylinders and one of those is a 455 TL that already been reamed and partially recessed to colt when I found it.

How accurate should they be. At 25 yards you should be able to easily hide the complete group behind a playing card and 45 make big holes and I should be able to kill a deer with one at 100yards if I can do my part. I need a rest, but anymore even with a rifle I carry one of those collapsible forked sticks. I am not as steady as I once was and I was never great off hand. Sitting or kneeling I don't miss much and prone almost never. But, now days if I laid down in the field I would need a rifle just to help me get back up. LOL

That's about what I was thinking. I use the old 1970's gun magazine standard: 2" at 25 yards. A playing card is 2.5" x 3.5". Close enough. Most American revolvers I've shot can do that out-of-the-box with a little work on the ammo. The few that did not had throat issues.

I had a Colt Python Target chambered in .38 Special that I suspect shot under an inch with cast wadcutters. I just couldn't do better than 1.25"-1.5". Smith and Wessons under 2" all day long.

 

[6string]

I have a 25-5 in the N659XXX range with .457 throats. Who was that one built for? People who wanted to use 45-70 bullets in .45 Colt?

The .457" throats were a carry-over from some .45 ACP revolvers. You see it often with 1917s and later 25-2s. There is no leade (tapered transition) between the chamber and throat, per se. These are intended to allow for headspacing off of the case mouth. As such, any discrepancy with bullet lube, concentricity, etc. or other ammo inperfections will cause the revolver to bind in operation.
Those early 25-5s were a mistake, as S&W carried the practice over to 45 Colt where these problems inherently don't exist.
But, even that can be solved by shooting "as cast" diameter bullets from .454-455" bullet molds, such as those made in large quantities by Lyman, etc.
Accuracy Bullet Mold can today custom make a mold today that will specifically cast the diameter you want with the alloy of your choice.

 

[steelslaver]

Ya, 2" center to center is about right. Then add 1/2" for the big holes. Some tinkering and some of them will do better

 

[steelslaver]

I have a 25-5 in the N659XXX range with .457 throats. Who was that one built for? People who wanted to use 45-70 bullets in .45 Colt?

LOL My lightest 45-70 bullets are 405gr and I don't think there would be much room for any powder once seated deep enough to chamber.

One thing is I do not believe you can use bullets much over .454 as anything else would make the case to large to chamber.

I also know some 45 colt chambers are a bit tighter than others. I have 2 45 colt reamers both with .452 pilots and one has a body about .0005 larger than the other.

 

[reddog81]

LOL My lightest 45-70 bullets are 405gr and I don't think there would be much room for any powder once seated deep enough to chamber.

One thing is I do not believe you can use bullets much over .454 as anything else would make the case to large to chamber.

I also know some 45 colt chambers are a bit tighter than others. I have 2 45 colt reamers both with .452 pilots and one has a body about .0005 larger than the other.

I actually bought a mold from NOE that works well sized to .457. It’s a 175 grain wadcutter listed at .460 diameter. I have no idea what the intended cartridge is but it works in this application. I was afraid it wouldn’t chamber with the large bullet but it works without issue other than having to buy a new mold, new sizing die for the bullets and a new larger expander die. Last range outing I was able to get 3 out of 6 rounds touching at 25 yards.

 

[Walter Rego]

My .45 Cal. Model 1950 Pre-Model 26 in .45 ACP was made in 1956 and has .455" throats. So it was made after S&W changed the manufacturing specs that 6string talks about above in post #21.

I also have a US Firearms Manufacturing Co. Single Action in .45 Colt that I ordered with the optional .45 ACP cylinder. The throats of both cylinders measure a tight .451". Chambering factory .45 Colt loads with lead bullets requires a good push with my thumb to get them to seat all the way. I haven't handloaded for it yet but will make sure to use bullets that are on the small side for diameter. Surprisingly, with the .45 ACP cylinder installed and shooting factory hardball, the gun will cut cloverleafs at 7 yards.

The long jump through the throats to the forcing cone as the .45 ACP cylinder is the same length as the .45 Colt cylinder don't seem to matter. I'll assume it is because the other factors like the bore/cylinder alignment must be spot on.

 

[steelslaver]

I believe the 45 colt is pretty much a hand loader cartridge anyway. You can find factory ammo, but most of it is pretty anemic, expensive and of limited in choices

All mine except my TL have .452 throats, but it I had a large throat gun, and didn't want to mess with it I would just shoot the largest bullets I could chamber. Not only will they fit the throats better, but because they fit the chambers tighter they will start out being closer to centered in a big throat.

While I do not magnumize my loads there is no reason a modern S&W will not handle the same pressures in 45 colt as it will in 45 acp

 

[jaymoore]

Yes it was pinned. S/N 71x,xxx so 1980?. I just put my calipers on bullet again and was .4525 Beauty of a revolver. BUT had I bought that I couldn't have purchase my 29-2 LOW 12x,xxx so hoping 1973-74 for never fired 29-2.

Of course, 29-2s all have "oversized throats". Finding "big" .45 bullets is actually easier than "big" .44 bullets. Both revolver chamberings can shoot well if you cater to their individual quirks. If you only shoot at 25 yards or less, it's likely no big deal, regardless.

 

[jaymoore]

I have a 25-5 in the N659XXX range with .457 throats. Who was that one built for? People who wanted to use 45-70 bullets in .45 Colt?

1970's vintage Winchester .45 Colt ammo used swaged hollow base 0.456" bullets. I still have some of the Winchester bullets sold for reloading purposes. Very accurate out of the "big throat" revolvers. The ammo changed before the revolvers. Conflicting .45 cartridges with different bullets sizes. The ACP finally influenced the Colt bullet size.

 

[steelslaver]

You do not need to buy a set of pin gauges to accurately measure your throats. A soft lead 50 cal muzzle loader ball tapped into the throat and a set of decent calibers will give you the correct measurement.

 

[glenwolde]

You do not need to buy a set of pin gauges to accurately measure your throats. A soft lead 50 cal muzzle loader ball tapped into the throat and a set of decent calibers will give you the correct measurement.

Yeah, but when I did that the gun store got mad. Pin gauges they don't mind.

 

[Model19man]

I have had and still have several S&W revolvers chambered for 45 Colt cartridge. Any revolver that you own will be ammunition sensitive. Your revolver will shoot with certain ammunition better than other ammunition.

The SAAMI specification for 45 Colt changed around 1990. Any revolver made before that time was made for .454" diameter bullets. Any revolver made after the change was made for .451" bullets - the industry changed the standard so that both 45 ACP and 45 Colt would have the same diameter projectiles.

Your revolver was made a decade before the change so it needs larger diameter bullets.