.25 ACP ballistic test-vs .22 Long Rifle

[drinva]

One of the oldest firearms I have is a 25 acp. Bought it at an auction years and years ago. I have carry this gun a lot, and shot it a lot. My son and I take it to the range fairly regularly. I am not as good as he is with it, but it shoots very well to about 15 yards. My son is dead eye accurate with it. It is a Intratec (now Kel-Tec) .25acp matte stainless with the ugliest grips you have ever seen. Kind of an off yellow harvest gold color grips. I have never shot anything other than FMJ in it. I can't believe all the negativity I have read in this thread on the .25. Much of it, as someone else stated, I would have to see to believe.

DR

 

[DWalt]

A .25 Galesi has been my CC pistol for years, and I have never fired it in anger - yet. If I do, it will be effective. My main reason for that choice is because it is light and will ride in a front pants pocket without any indication that it is there. There are not many other handguns that can do that, and it is valuable, as where I live, it is seldom cold enough to wear a coat, and not dressy enough to wear a sports coat or suit jacket which could hide a holstered pistol of larger dimensions. The best and most reliable ammunition I have tried is CCI Blazer FMJ - 100% reliable.

 

[tailslide]

Here's a bit of interesting history, dreadful, concerning Blokhin the executioner and the .25acp....


Vasili Blokhin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, base of the skull even .22 short will do.

 

[tailslide]

When the world was young(circa 1800), gun and ammunition designers started experimenting to see what could be done, and what could be done successfully. By the time we get around to JMB, there had accumulated sufficient data to guess accurately what to expect from various combinations of bullet design, weight, and velocity. From this data we saw the development of the whole line of ACPs: the .25, the .32, the .380, the .38, and the .45. They were designed, along with the arms to use them, to fulfill specific needs, real or imagined, of the gun buying public. They all succeeded to some extent as proven by their continued production and development even to this day. None of them is sufficient to every purpose, but they all fulfill some purpose.

Just don't expect to see me carrying anything less than a .45.

 

[truckemup97]

I sure wish I'da read all this before I bought that little Bryco .25.

 

[photoracer]

What the original poster failed to take into account is the fact that when the .25 went thru 4 water jugs that is what is wrong with it not a good thing. It means no expansion and little or no temporary wound cavity. Mostly due to the .25 being to slow for most any HP round to expand. A .22LR is not much better because the velocity is a little higher but there are no real HP rounds in .22 LR. Its the temporary and permanent wound cavities that create incapacitation and true knockdown power. Even .32 and .380 are not real great but better bullets have been designed in the last couple of decades that create some expansion even at 1000 FPS., the first being the Win Silvertip.
As for other ACP rounds I'd rather carry a .380 with HP ammo than a .45in FMJ. What I really carry is a 357Sig in 125g Speer Gold Dots, which is one of the better all-around combat rounds, the one most LE units use as the standard ammo all the way up the the Secret Service. Would I carry a .45? Yes but in some kind of double stack firearm.

 

[photoracer]

Yes, base of the skull even .22 short will do.

Correct. I am pretty sure the development of specific .22 subsonic ammo (not match ammo which is also subsonic) was tied to the introduction of the internally suppressed CIA assasination Hi-Standard .22. One of my collector friends has one in his collection, including a supply of the rubber O-rings used in the barrel. That was around the time (60's) the firearm was developed.

 

[Roadtrash]

Has anyone ever made one with a longer barrel? Seems like a longer barrel would make a pretty good round out of the little 25.

 

[WE0H]

Here's my little 25acp.

Haven't shot it yet but I did buy a few mag's. Don't know if it will be a backup carry or not. I just wanted to buy something new one day last year and this was the one

Mike

 

[gk2410]

It seems every few years the debate over the effectiveness of the little .25 auto and .22 LR come up in one forum or the other. I worked for 16 years in Homicide in a midwest city that saw over 300 homicides per year when times were different.

The majority of those were with these little rounds, because that was just the era I worked in. Yes, sometimes it took someone a few hours to die, but many others dropped on the spot. And yes, there are exceptions that can be documented for both the little calibers and the larger calibers, but they are just that - exceptions. Heck, we had a suspect in the back of the marked cruiser reach through the pass-through in the screen and put a .357 right behind the ear of an officer and fired. The round went right through - side to side - and he's alive and well today.

None of us disagree that the larger, higher velocity calibers are more effective, but sometimes you just aren't in a place or dressed properly to carry those larger guns, and the little .25 auto is a whole lot better than nothing....

 

[WE0H]

Best to bring your 25 auto to a gunfight rather than your two fists

Mike

 

[153]

Great thread!

I'm taking my .25's out for a shoot...

 

[Sawfish]

Terrific thread. The fact that this thread spans three pages (and counting) and a number of years says a lot about the .25 ACP. A lot of good and thoughtful comments-both pro and con. I have three of these little pistols, and although, they may not be a top choice for self defense, I have always considered carry pistols to be like cameras, the best one for the job is the one that you have with you.

 

[policerevolvercollector]

In the Ian Fleming novel Ari Goldfinger was discussing his use of the .25 acp against Bond's "powerhouse" .32 Walther.

He said something to the effect that he "didn't need anything larger because I aim for the right eye and I never miss"

He wasn't claiming to be a great shot . . . just, that when he used it, it was up close and personal.

Lot's of better things to carry, but they'll all kill ya . . . .

Remember......Bond carried a Beretta .25 because he could hide it while wearing a tuxedo. He was forced to give it up for the Walther 7.65mm (.32 acp) because of what happened at the end of the book version of "From Russia With Love".

 

[Texas Star]

Remember......Bond carried a Beretta .25 because he could hide it while wearing a tuxedo. He was forced to give it up for the Walther 7.65mm (.32 acp) because of what happened at the end of the book version of "From Russia With Love".

I think Goldfinger's first name was Auric, not Ari, as posted above.

See, "Dr. No" for the scene where Bond changed guns. The "Maj. Boothroyd" who appeared in the book and movie was based on a real Scots gun writer named Geoffrey Boothroyd, who advised Fleming on guns. His, "The Handgun" is probably the greatest book on the subject yet written. It is often available quite cheaply Online. He looked nothing like the actor who played Boothroyd in the movie.

See my earlier post in this thread for more on Bond guns, inc. Boothroyd's take on the matter. I treasure a letter that I received from him soon after I graduated high school. I was already a Bond fan.

 

[bmcgilvray]

As for other ACP rounds I'd rather carry a .380 with HP ammo than a .45in FMJ.

Expansion isn't the do-all and end-all that so many think it is.

I'll take a .380 over a .25 but I particularly do not want any sort of expanding bullet with either. Penetration to the "good stuff" must be assured above all other considerations.

They've yet to make the .380 load that will whip .45 ACP FMJ ball ammo. It's just a matter of 230 grains of .45 caliber goodness versus 90-100 grains of "it might open up and then again it might not." And if it opens up it'll still have a hard time being as big around as the .45 is as it exits the muzzle.

The .45 ACP ball load is effective with good hits and no hollow point will make up for bad hits.

 

[WE0H]

How well does the 40 SW do?

Mike

 

[gunfan]

Expansion isn't the do-all and end-all that so many think it is.

I'll take a .380 over a .25 but I particularly do not want any sort of expanding bullet with either. Penetration to the "good stuff" must be assured above all other considerations.

They've yet to make the .380 load that will whip .45 ACP FMJ ball ammo. It's just a matter of 230 grains of .45 caliber goodness versus 90-100 grains of "it might open up and then again it might not." And if it opens up it'll still have a hard time being as big around as the .45 is as it exits the muzzle.

The .45 ACP ball load is effective with good hits and no hollow point will make up for bad hits.

Bryce: You are 100% correct. I have more faith in accuracy and penetration than expansion. The .25 will ALWAYS win out over the .22 LR because of accuracy and penetration. The FMJ permits the 50 grain slug greater efficiency from the shorter barrel than the .22 LR could EVER achieve. The soft lead of the .22 LR inhibits penetration if it strikes bone. (I don't know how to break it to you .22 LE fan boys, but it is the nature of copper clad lead bullets.) Anyone that buys the "bouncing around inside the body" horse hockey will also believe in the tooth fairy! Sorry, this phenomenon is an "urban legend" if I have ever heard one!

John Moses Browning created the .25 ACP for:

a) Accuracy,

b) penetration (due to the original FMJ bullet)

c) center fire dependability and,

d) short case efficiency (short case, short barrel and fast-burning propellants.)

This illustrates JMB's genius.

Scott

 

[gunfan]

Erich Martel, (an attorney that once worked with the DA's office in conjunction with the Albuquerque Coroner's Office) told me that the most effective ammunition used in both .32 and .380 ACP exhibited their highest levels of performance with FMJ ammunition.

Erich put it this way:

"If the projectiles being fire are leaving the handgun's muzzle at subsonic velocities, why would you put 'speed brakes' on the slug, thus preventing needed penetration to damage the vital organs?"

In the course of hundreds of homicide investigations, the slower .32 and .380 shootings that had used FMJ ammunition were statistically more likely to achieve the desired results.

The defense... rests.

Scott

 

[gunfan]

This thread has been a real interesting read. Makes me rethink a lot of things I have heard over the years about the little 25.

It would be nice to have something chambered for a 25 with a little more room for powder. You know, say another 1/8 to 1/4 inch in length. Has anyone ever made anything of this type?

I don't know much about the smaller cal guns, other than 22's, it sounds like it could be made into something really usable with enough powder.

The .25 NAA is the answer to your quest. A .32 ACP case that has been "necked down" to accept a .251" 50 grain, .25 cal. bullet.

I have always wanted to have a gunsmith/barrel maker fabricate a barrel for my Zastava M70 "Tokarev" type pistol in chambered for the .25 NAA. 3.7" of "runway" would make the .25 NAA reach about 1375 fps and yield about 209 fpe. This would be quite effective in punching through bones and tissue. 8+1 of these rounds would more than likely break off nearly any human threat.

Scott