'29 classic... bad experience!

[crackshotsdad]

Greetings all. Long time hand-gunner but new to this forum. It is with regret that my 1st thread in this forum is a complaint about a Smith and Wesson product. Mind you I've been a huge fan of S&W for decades. Now the story. Back in August a bunch of us kids got together and purchased a new '29 classic for my dad's birthday. Fit and finish were on par with most high quality S&W products. However, a final wipe down (and fondling) revealed a serious flaw about 2" from the crown inside the bore. It was a large raised galling of the rifling that some how got past inspection and proof firing. We sent it back and after a fairly quick turn around received the '29 with a new barrel. Here is where the fun begins. The new barrel has rifling that was machined way off center (see attached). Now correct me if I'm wrong but barrels are still installed on frames by hand. Some one had this in his/her hand at some point. As a fabricator/welder I deal with steel and tight tolerances for a living. Any way, we sent the '29 back a 2nd time with the same picture you see here. After an even more rapid turn around, we opened the package to find an unchanged '29 and a form letter from S&W claiming that it is within "Smith and Wesson's manufacturing standards". In short, They will do nothing else on our behalf. Mind you if I'd payed $200.00 for some Norinco rattle trap, I wouldn't complain. We put up nearly $1,200.00 for this piece for dad's 65th birthday. I am at a loss. S&W's reputation for fine revolvers and great customer service has been damaged, at least for me. At the behest of others and against my better judgment, we are taking it to the range today and I will report back on it tonight. Regardless of how well or poorly it shoots, I believe S&W should have done something about this off line barrel. Any suggestions on how to proceed from here would be appreciated. I'd hate to think this is the last S&W I'll ever buy.

 

[arizonarotors]

Hi,

Could you help me understand what you mean?

Is the barrel bored off axis?

Jim

 

[Stevie]

The bore ain't bored through the center of the barrel...it's noticably off-center(barely noticable)...he has it marked.

 

[buck460XVR]

crackshotsdad....I believe you should do what the folks over at the 1911 forum told you to do two months ago. Shoot it and see how it shoots, then you'll know if you have a serious complaint or not. One of the best bird-dogs I ever owned was an ugly Setter-Lab cross. Biggest mistake of my life woulda been to get rid of him cause of his looks, unless I was into dog shows instead of huntin'. Again...shoot it. Unless all you want dad to do is look at it.

 

[mkk41]

Can't really tell without seeing it in hand , but every company let's out a lemon now and then.

Several years ago , I ordered a Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in .41 Magnum from Davidsons as soon as they were announced. When mine arrived , I gave it a close inspection and was soon livid! The list of gripes was a long one. This thing was a piece of ****. The cylinder had .009 for/aft movement and a .005 diff between cylinder hole and base pin. The muzzle crown was off center and had chatter. I told them it looked like it was done by a drunk with a dull countersink in a hand drill. The rear sight base had about .010" side to side movement in the frame cut. The whole gun had sharpe edges. The action and trigger pull felt and sounded like a box of rocks. Had I picked it up in a gun shop , I would have never bought it. But I special ordered it so it was now mine. The next day I sent a highly detailed and angry letter to Ruger. Even told them I was a toolmaker by trade and hobby gunsmith so I knew what I was talking about. They replied and sent a return shipping box. After having it a few days , they agreed with my assesment , apoligized and sent a replacement revolver , which I must say was only slightly better built.

Swore I'd never buy a new Ruger again.

Then I saw one of the new flattop Blackhawks in.41. This thing was beautifully made. Yep , I bought it!

 

[raveneap]

I, too, have been a SW lover for many decades and have a number of them. Several years ago I bought a new 637. In a word, it was atrocious. Felt like it was full of sand, cylinder release stuck and on at least one occasion, would not release the cylinder at all. After a couple trips back to SW, they gave me full credit towards another gun. If you call SW service, ask for Kelley. (If she's still there.) She's far and away the best service rep I've ever dealt with in any company.

 

[dant]

looking at the picture I'd have to say the distance form the "peak" of the muzzle drown to the OUTSIDE of the barrel is immaterial, it is from the bore , to the "peak" of the crown that counts,needs to be 'concentric' and as noted above, the proof would be in the shooting.....we had this occur from time to time when refinishing various firearms in our shops, and the polishing can "look" ( make it appear off center) as said above, more a thing of asthetics, than function....shoot it, and its dangerous to concentrate too much on THAT end of the gun, just MY .02 cents...........

 

[ralph7]

i can't tell if it is off because of the lighting.
a measurement from an id groove to the od on both sides of the barrel would be helpful to understand how bad this is.

 

[stevieboy]

Maybe it's me but I'm just not seeing a problem here. That's not to say I'm correct, however. I'd test fire it, preferably from a Ransom Rest or some other device that immobilizes the gun. If the rounds don't fire in a tight group or if they're consistently off POA, then, obviously, there's a problem.

As an aside, I purchased a used Smith & Wesson Model 64 recently. This is a gun that was made back in the 70's, so it's been in someone's possession for nearly 40 years. It's a very nice gun, in fact, it has the best double action trigger I've ever experienced on a revolver. But, at the range, the gun shot consistently 3" to the left of my POA at ten yards. The groups were tight but always well to the left. I'm a fairly competent shooter, and I've never experienced anything like that. On close examination I discovered that the barrel was rotated at least 10 degrees to right of center. That meant, obviously, that I'd have to pull my front sight well to the left of center in order to center it in the rear sights and that accounted for the gun shooting to the left. I had a local Smith turn the barrel for me and the gun now shoots dead on.

My point is that, if you have a problem with this gun, it's not the first one that Smith sent out of its factory with a defect. I'm still puzzled that mine could have been in circulation for 40 years without someone doing something about it.

 

[charliek]

I don't 'see' anything. You need to take measurements of the rifling to the OD of the barrel 360 degrees. There are manufacturing tolerances, and it may just be inside these. I work in an auto supplier field as a Q.C. tech. People on the floor always saying this and that is not right by looks, but measuring instruments don't lie.

 

[crackshotsdad]

Maybe it's me but I'm just not seeing a problem here. That's not to say I'm correct, however. I'd test fire it, preferably from a Ransom Rest or some other device that immobilizes the gun. If the rounds don't fire in a tight group or if they're consistently off POA, then, obviously, there's a problem.


As promised we went to the range today. Results not good. Brand of factory ammo used: Hornady and Winchester (Winchester was .44 special) Hornady in 200 and 240gr jhp and Win. in 240gr. swc. Best any of us could do was 4 to 4.5" group at a measured 25 yards, from a rested shooting position. My python and I shot a 1.5"group at the same distance, and my son managed a 3" group with his Sig. p238. TRUST me it wasn't us... it was the gun!!! Any suggestions on what I should do next?

 

[cgt4570]

It's hard to tell for sure from the pic, but it looks like it might just be a crowning issue and not a bore issue. Looks like the the crowning tool might have been a tad off-center and taken more of the sharp corners off the ends of some of the lands than others. A proper crowning might make it look concentric and centered.

 

[pharmer]

I'd shoot it and see. There are 5 lands and grooves so it's always going to look "non-symmetrical." Joe

 

[Hondo44]

First of all, welcome to the forum. Now that you're here I believe you'll recognize the value of consensus of opinions that you get here from members representing 100s of years of combined firearm and shooting experience. As advised several times, you need to shoot it before making a final judgement. After years of crowning barrels, the only potential issue that I see in your photo is possibly a slightly non-perpendicular internal crown polishing. The grooves on the left side appear deeper than those on the right but I can't be sure, I don't have the gun in hand and the photo is not a 'straight on' view. Is the muzzle square on the end when viewed from the side?

These guns are not custom guns that cost twice as much or more, but they are a huge value for what we pay for them. Yes, some come thru that are unacceptable. Your 1st barrel was in that category. I don't think the new barrel is but again, I reserve judgement until I hear/see shooting results. This will tell you if the bore center line is aligned with your chambers and not just the outside surface of the barrel. If it doesn't, then you have a reasonable complaint to go back to S&W about.

I have guns with similar looking muzzles that shoot fine. But if they aesthetically bother me I have been known to true up the crown cut or polish. My Lou Horton Model 624 3" .44 special had a bore that 'looked' off center and not concentric in the barrel, but it shoots beautifully, especially for a 3" barrel. So just to make it more visually pleasing I slightly reshaped and repolished the outer surface of the muzzle so it looks as centered as it really is. On your gun which is blue I don't see a big enough problem to make it worth having to touch up the blue, a bigger visual problem. But touching up the inner crown surface is not.

Please let us know how it shoots.

P.S. Thanks, I see that you have posted a range report while I was responding. As I said, now you have legitimate evidence to support your complaint and to go back to Smith with! Have you miced the cylinder throats to verify their size consistency? You may have more than one complaint.

 

[Magnumdood]

Can't really tell without seeing it in hand , but every company let's out a lemon now and then.

Several years ago , I ordered a Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in .41 Magnum from Davidsons as soon as they were announced. When mine arrived , I gave it a close inspection and was soon livid! The list of gripes was a long one. This thing was a piece of ****. The cylinder had .009 for/aft movement and a .005 diff between cylinder hole and base pin. The muzzle crown was off center and had chatter. I told them it looked like it was done by a drunk with a dull countersink in a hand drill. The rear sight base had about .010" side to side movement in the frame cut. The whole gun had sharpe edges. The action and trigger pull felt and sounded like a box of rocks. Had I picked it up in a gun shop , I would have never bought it. But I special ordered it so it was now mine. The next day I sent a highly detailed and angry letter to Ruger. Even told them I was a toolmaker by trade and hobby gunsmith so I knew what I was talking about. They replied and sent a return shipping box. After having it a few days , they agreed with my assesment , apoligized and sent a replacement revolver , which I must say was only slightly better built.

Swore I'd never buy a new Ruger again.

Then I saw one of the new flattop Blackhawks in.41. This thing was beautifully made. Yep , I bought it!

My Dad grew up in the Great Depression, and to say he was frugal was an understatement. However, that frugality eased a little when it came to guns. He told me that you didn’t have to need a gun to buy it, you just had to want it.

I inherited my Dad’s pride and joy, a Ruger 3-screw flat top in .41 Magnum. I remember riding to FedMart with my Mom and buying it for him. It must have been around 1973. My Dad would pull that gun out, and wipe it down with his silicone cloth, cock it and pull the trigger a couple of times while aiming at the TV, then he’d carefully wipe it down and put it back in the original box. I know he shot it, but there are still rounds in the original box of ammunition my Mom bought with the revolver.

That Ruger is a thing of beauty to me; there are NO sharp edges and the action is as smooth as butter…and it hasn’t even been broken in. My son will get that revolver in the same shape I got it...kinda. I won't fire it, but I coated the blued metal with a clearcoat polymer from Dynacoat, and I wipe it down with a silicone cloth. It doesn't need it because the clearcoat seals it; I just rnjoy treating his prize possession as he did, and of course I keep the bore oiled. He didn’t spring for a Smith & Wesson, so, in just this one case, I prefer the Ruger .41 Mag to the S&W .41 Mag.