2nd Model H.E. military use

[Kinman]

If used in military application what style holster was used on a 2nd Model H.E.? The 6.5" barrel might allow it to fit the same holster used with the Model of 1917 but I kinda doubt it. Fitted with the lanyard ring would make the impression that it was designed for military use, possibly L.E. I haven't seen any military holsters that seem designated for a long 6.5" barrel, let alone a large framed revolver. I am not an avid collector of this specie just curious, I do own a factory altered 2nd model target model.

 

[handejector]

What gun are you talking about-
44-2nd
or 455-2nd
????


There was no official use of the 44-2nd by the military, so there are no military holsters for it. They are too long for the 1917 holster.


The Brits had a leather flap holster for the 455 S&Ws. See pics here- The Young LT's Triple Lock .455


I have heard it said that they had a similar holster with no flap that enlisted personnel would have been issued, but I have not seen one.

 

[opoefc]

I have, and have had, several 1st & 2nd Model .455HEs, that were issued or purchased by British officers in WW1, and some came to me with their original holsters, which were large leather full flap style that covered the entire revolver. (Officers were required to provide their own side arms and bought them from Gun dealers or could buy them from the Gov't.) Most of the holsters were maker marked by English purveyors. None appeared to have been military issued, however since 1,000s of HEs were shipped to England for military use, some type of holster would have been needed for them. Query the Imperial War Museum staff, they would know. Ed.

 

[Hondo44]

I do own a factory altered 2nd model target model.

Kinman,

Thank you for your service.

Tell us about or show us your 2nd Model.

 

[Kinman]

My 2nd Model H.E. .44 Special, Serial number 27668 was shipped from the factory 4-6-27 and returned twice in 1967, first for a sight change to '67 era micro rear and tall front sight w/red ramp insert, then again for a complete refinish once it met with its owners approval.

 

[wheelgun610]

.... Serial number 277668 was shipped from the factory 4-6-27....

One digit too many in that S/N.

 

[Kinman]

Here I thought the guy that spotted the baby cockroach had a good eye, thanks for the correction.

 

[Jack Flash]

One of the links provided above shows the flapped holster the British officers used. Here is the flapless holster, Type P08 OR, issued to "Other Ranks" (not officers).
You may be interested in Revolvers of the British Services 1854 - 1954. I think you can still get it on Amazon.

 

[Hondo44]

Jack,

Which gun was that holster for?

Clearly looks too short for the 455 BSR which has a 6 1/2" barrel.

 

[Texas Star]

Jack,

Which gun was that holster for?

Clearly looks too short for the 455 BSR which has a 6 1/2" barrel.

The cleaning rod seems short, too, so I think this set may be for four-inch barrels, MK IV and V Webeys and a few short MK VI's.

The longer one looks the same, save for length. I think it was for all .455's, Webley, Colt, and S&W.

I've seen flapped .455 holsters from Canada that looked longer than needed for 5.5 inch Colt NS barrels or Webley MK VI six-inch barrels.

There's a pic on the Net showing an officer of the Household Cavalry and several NCO's. The officer has a flap on his holster; the NCO's had open tops. Guns were Webley MK IV or V. The only real difference is that MK V cylinder walls are a bit thicker, for greater safety with smokeless powder loads.

Try to view, Lawrence of Arabia, a major movie from 1960 or so. Look at the holsters. The MP's (red caps) wore the Other Ranks holsters. Lawrence (Peter O'Toole) had a Webley MK VI. The real Lawrence may have had one, but is better known for carrying a Colt Government Model .45 auto.

I don't grasp why the OP is speculating about holsters for M-1917 .45's. Those weren't used by British forces until WW II when some saw service with SAS and similar special ops units and in the Indian AF.

 

[Glashaus]

If you are looking for a military holster for a 6 1/2" 2nd Model HE, El Paso Saddlery can make a lengthend M1917 for you.

Military – El Paso Saddlery

I had them make one, plain with lining and a gun belt, it was a little pricey, took about six months but is very nice and man that . 44 Special HE looks good in it when I wear that rig on the hunt lease.

 

[H Richard]

The British were keen on canvas type holsters for various handguns, possibly there was a model for the .455's.

 

[Texas Star]

You're thinking mainly of WW II, not WW I.

Pattern 1937 holsters were made in two models. One was for the Enfield No. 2 .38 and one for the remaining Webley MK VI .455's still in service. They varied in shape as well as in size.

The .38 holster was also used with Colt and S&W revolvers in WW II. And some were used with Colt .45 autos, which were used extensively by commando and paratroop units and by SOE and SAS. Churchill expressly wanted the Colt .45 auto, which he personally carried, for his newly formed commando forces. The ctg. also interchanges with their Thompson SMG's, which some retained after the 9mm Sten gun replaced it in most forces.
Tankers had an open-topped rig, with bullet loops for .38 cartridges sewn on the front. This originally had a long drop strap, for the gun to ride low on the leg. It was a nuisance that way, and many were modded to use a shorter strap. I think they were eventually made that way.

As this is an S&W board, I'll mention that Newsweek or Time once had a cover photo of King Hussein II of Jordan. He was wearing a Model 19 in one of those open canvas webbing holsters. Pretty nice wood in the grips, too.

The Mills company did make some webbing holsters during WW I. Those I've seen in photos were for Colt .45 autos, which were rather popular with officers, who bought their own pistols until 1915. After 1920, they had to carry the issued model, the Webley MK VI. However, the Ministry of Defence cheated Webley by not placing more orders for MK VI. Instead, they blatantly stole the design and made the guns at Enfield arsenal. You can tell a true Webley from the Enfield made MK VI by the markings.

Some Colt 1911's chambered for the .455 Eley AUTO ctg. were bought in WW I. I don't know which holsters they used. The RAF used these in WWII; issued them to Coastal Command.

Officers wearing Colt autos often had leather holsters with a spare magazine pouch on the side, as with German holsters for, say, the P-38, Browning 9mm, etc. but because the guns were private property, the holsters were of no set pattern and varied a little. I've seen one such holster for a .25 Webley, worn by some field marshal. He did not, of course, expect to see battle.

 

[Texas Star]

The first images I've seen of the canvas webbing Pattern 37 holsters was in a movie called, Drums, made in 1937

It was set in India, and the holsters must have been rushed there in time for the film, or gotten from military stores almost as the items arrived!

Either that, or similar holsters were issued a few years earlier.
You can sometimes see this film on YouTube, and it's quite good.

Apart from the Enfield .38's, one can see a MK IV or V Webley .455 and I think one officer's wife had a Colt .32 or .380.

You may be able to locate it by Searching for a star's name. Try Raymond Massey.

 

[Monty05]

WW1 British Holsters

BTW, here is a picture of a .455 HE and flap holster.carried through WW1 by a Lt. in West Sussex Yeomanry.
Also photo from "Revolvers of the British Services 1854-1954) showing open holsters for the Webley Mk VI, carried by two Corporals

 

[Jack Flash]

Jack,

Which gun was that holster for?

Clearly looks too short for the 455 BSR which has a 6 1/2" barrel.

Sorry it took so long to reply.

You ask a good question! It does look a little short for 6.5" barrels. What I remembered is that this was the holster for "Other Ranks" and I took it on faith the .455 S&W would fit. So I had to review my information.

I found this in Revolvers of the British Services 1854 - 1954 in reference to the flapless Land Service holsters 1890-1920:
"These open-bottomed holsters accommodated the longer Mark VI and Colt and Smith & Wesson pistols in their time."

(Naturally, the Mark VI referenced in the quote is the standard Webley revolver which had a six inch barrel.)
So the muzzles protruded from the open bottom of the holster to a greater or lesser degree, depending on which revolver was being carried. I don't know how that worked out in the muddy trenches in France.

 

[Texas Star]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjL4g_uBz9g[/ame]

Pelicula en espanol...Lo siento, no es en engles.

I found that film I mentioned above, but only in Spanish. I know some here can understand that, so here goes...

BTW, another source was wrong. The movie was made on 1938, not 1937. So, the web Pattern 37 holsters were understandable, but must have reached troops quite soon after adoption.

And the film title is, The Drum, not Drums.

 

[Texas Star]

BTW, here is a picture of a .455 HE and flap holster.carried through WW1 by a Lt. in West Sussex Yeomanry.
Also photo from "Revolvers of the British Services 1854-1954) showing open holsters for the Webley Mk VI, carried by two Corporals

THANKS! But look again: those revolvers are Webley MK IV or V, with four-inch barrels.

Some MK VI were made with four-inch barrels, but are uncommon. Most seem to have gone to South Africa. And MK VI had the square butt, so no difficulty telling them from earlier marks when in open topped holsters.

 

[Kinman]

My curiousity was mainly in reference to the fact that that many .44 2nd Model H.E. s were built with lanyard loops. For some reason or another I always associated the lanyard loop with military service. I can find no other reason to want to have your sidearm with a loop attached to it, possibly L.E. but there again only if mounted on a horse or possibly motorcycle...but then again different times in our history and possibly used in crowd control. Just a curiousity mainly and thanks to all for your terrific ideas and other areas to check into. Without the lanyard attached the loop is something that has no purpose and it easy to see why some people put in a plug or machine off the exposed area of the loop, it serves no purpose without the lanyard. I went to the trouble of installing one on my Brazilian model of 1917 and afterwards wondered why I went to all the trouble especially since I then removed it in order to install a decent pair of target stocks.

 

[Texas Star]

My curiousity was mainly in reference to the fact that that many .44 2nd Model H.E. s were built with lanyard loops. For some reason or another I always associated the lanyard loop with military service. I can find no other reason to want to have your sidearm with a loop attached to it, possibly L.E. but there again only if mounted on a horse or possibly motorcycle...but then again different times in our history and possibly used in crowd control. Just a curiousity mainly and thanks to all for your terrific ideas and other areas to check into. Without the lanyard attached the loop is something that has no purpose and it easy to see why some people put in a plug or machine off the exposed area of the loop, it serves no purpose without the lanyard. I went to the trouble of installing one on my Brazilian model of 1917 and afterwards wondered why I went to all the trouble especially since I then removed it in order to install a decent pair of target stocks.

My son used a lanyard on his pistol in Iraq and it was quite useful a couple of times.

And, men who go out in canoes, etc. and who climb mountains or sit in tree stands can use a lanyard to good effect.

If I was exploring jungles, out on rivers a lot, I'd want a lanyard.

Does the RCMP still use lanyards, apart from the white ones they wear with their red coats on ceremonial duties?