3 FTFs today after 1500rounds after pigtail spring removed

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snubb

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had 3 ftf, light strikes after pigtail spring removed this week. I still don't know how the pigtail spring would affect this. All I know that I had 1500 trouble free rounds and after i took out the spring 3ftfs. Soooo, logic would dictate that the spring has some affect.
Can someone explain this to me?
Thanks guys
snubb
 
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My SW9VE is totally stock! Still the same way it came out of the box brand new! I don't see any reason to remove a spring from a handgun. I have 1400 rounds through my STOCK Sigma. Not sure if the spring you removed has anything to do with it, but it very well may be the problem. Why did you remove the spring?
 
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KK we before we blame the removal of the pig tail spring, lets look at some things first.. when was the last time you cleaned the gun? could be possible you have some powder residuein the firing pin hole causing the FTF, removing or modifying the pigtail spring usually doesnt result in light strikes, I would blow some CLP into the firing pin hole then follow it with some canned air and blow any gunk out. If you still have issue replace the spring and test fire. if still ahve issue call S&W for a service ticket
 
If something was wrong with the spring, probably should have replaced it, no? I think all the parts in the gun serve a purpose.

Ours is stock, smooth, and never a malfunction.
 
Removing the pigtail would not cause light strikes. Might be hard primers or trash in striker/firing pin channel, etc.

Removing springs in sear assy might cause reset failures. If you're going to do it, make sure and remove all of the roughness in the sear slot. I removed the pigtail & replaced outer sear spring with a lighter one and have had no reset or light strike issues. But I also polished all sear contact surfaces, especially in the sear slot.

Got a whole bunch of ammo on hand/coming in, plan to launch a lot of lead at the range this weekend thru my 9VE, and newly acquired M&P 9 & PF9. Hurry up weekend!
 
If all you did was remove the pigtail spring, then your three FTF were not caused by the removal. We would need more details to tell for sure what caused your failures. What else did you do to your pistol, if anything? What kind of ammo were you using?

Was it a fail to fire OR was it a fail to feed? If it was a failure to fire, did you feel the striker release? What I mean by that is, did the trigger reset or did you just have slack when you attempted to pull the trigger to fire? If it was a failure to feed, did the round jam in the magazine. Sometimes you need to bang the magazine after loading it, against your hand to make sure that the primer end of the rounds are flush against the back of the magazine. If not, then you may have a round that won't feed.

You didn't give enough details for anyone to understand what might have occurred.

There is a lot of experience on this forum, and a lot of folks willing to assist you.
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Now that I reread your comment, I realized that I read it too quickly. You mentioned light strikes. The pigtail won't cause light strikes. The only thing that could cause that is a weak or real dirty striker spring. That eliminates that idea of the pigtail spring removal as the culprit.
 
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Ya know, I did the same thing. I studied the trigger mod on You Tube, "making a silk purse out of a sow's ear" or something similar. Next time I went shooting, had a few FTFs, inconsistent, one mag fine, the next two, 3-4 FTFs. Figured it had something to do with what I did, common denominator, I had my fingers in there although I couldn't figure out what pulling the springs would have to do with the firing pin not hitting hard enough. By the end of the day I had a mess of FTFs, got worse as the day went on. Spoke with the range owners, checked a couple of spent cases as well as a couple of rounds that didn't fire, nothing conclusive, they recommended I pull the firing pin, maybe a 'chip' of metal not allowing the pin full travel. At one point one of the owner handed me a half box of ammo, Magtech I think, told me to try it, went back inside, ran a mag through, NO PROBLEM. Finally realized that the problem was probably the ammo, I had a bunch of gun show ammo along with some reloads I had gotten from Pro Load, had shot a couple hundred rounds of that with no problem. The Pro Load had come packaged in plastic bags, the gun show ammo the same way except the bags had no sticker, hadn't really noticed. Long story short, as the day went on, I was finishing up the Pro Load ammo and slowly working my way into the gun show ****, later in the day the more problems I had. I figured all this out after going home, going completely through the gun, re-watching the trigger mod video and thinking. Bought a bunch of Remington UMC, WWB, went back to the range, NO PROBLEM, 200-300 rounds. Moral of story, don't be so quick to blame the removal of the spring, it has been done MANY times by many people with no problems, (specifically FTFs). Double check your work, try some other ammo. IMO, that's where the problem is.
 
By FTF I mean...

The bullet chambered correctly and did not go off. I checked the bullet and did see an indentation on the primer. I know it could be the ammo (WWB), however just never did this before(1500 rounds with same ammo). I just wanted to know if this could be related to the pigtail?
thanks

PS today was the first day that I was staging the trigger. Could this be the reason? thanks
 
It's true that there have been many people who did whatever mod to the trigger assembly and have had success.

However, there have also been many who have had problems.

If I thought that I had to modify a new gun in order to make it work right, there is no way I'd buy it in the first place.

I don't why the gun is having failures, but I would put it back together the way it came from the factory and then start the troubleshooting process. At least you can eliminate the possibility of any changes you may have made as the cause.

If the factory version of the sigma still has problems, and you've eliminated the ammo as the culprit, then call Smith, they'll send you a shipping label and make it right.

Was the gun having problems before you took out the pigtail? Was all this an attempt to make the trigger easier to pull?

Hope you get it fixed soon.

Good luck!
 
I'm sorry but not being an expert, I have a couple of questions of my own. Please have some patience with me as I am getting a bit older and I may not see things with a younger, more modern perspective.

First thing I would like answered, if you will, is how removing ANY springs from the sear block assembly would cause a "light strike?"
My understanding was/is that about the worst case would be that removing springs from the sear assembly could at worst cause a reset failure. Is that not true?

My understanding is that the striker is responsible for hitting the primer and that the only reason for a light strike would be either a weaker striker spring (modified or worn out) or an incredibly dirty striker spring. Am I missing something there?

Forgive me for sounding facetious but I replaced the points in my 1968 Mustang with an electronic mod. If the wheel falls off or the seat adjuster doesn't work, I doubt it would be the result of my replacing the points.

snubb said he had light strikes, which resulted in a fail to fire. Like someone else said, it sounds like a striker problem or hard primers. Am I wrong?

I bet he wasn't looking for condemnation for his attempts to smooth out his action. It seemed to me that he was looking for advice on his fail to fire situation.

I am not criticizing anyone regarding their views regarding modification of a perfectly good weapon. I am only suggesting that perhaps a little diplomacy would encourage one that is already feeling discouraged.

This is an excellent forum and the folks on here have been real helpful and instructive. Thank you for your courteous assistance.
 
I purchased a new .40VE ,Nov 2009, and removed the pigtail spring and polished the sear and have not had any problems. After doing some reading outside of the forum, I found that the pigtail spring is a backup to the two coil springs that reset the sear. I will not do the Bic pen mod. Another reason that I removed the pigtail is that it pushes against the plastic housing and will wear a groove in it soon or later and according to S&W the only way to get a new one or any sear part is to send the gun back to them for repair.
 
I had a similar problem when I removed my pigtail spring; the trigger would fail to reset every 2-3 rds. Turns out I had the sear block assembly incorrectly installed. The 'cradle' that the sear block sits in, (where the 2 springs rest)-I had installed that backwards, with the sear block facing forwards. Dry fires were OK, didn't realize I had an issue until next range session. No other mods, had run over 1,000 rds prior with no failures. Check your work/re-assembly, apparently the Sigma isn't Sailor-proof!:rolleyes:
 
Double checked my work. and nothing out of place

I may have upset the Sigma gods, or perhapse by removing the pigtail spring I have altered the way the world removes around its axis, or even worse maybe I have entered another parallel universe where my originally flawless sigma now gives me FTFs.
Just kidding.
I have cleaned my gun thoroughly. I will retry another box of same ammo this week.
hope all goes well
thanks
Snubb
 
I hesitate to say anything because, quite frankly, I am tired of being insulted and called names by the Sigma spring removal advocates.
But if they will just hold their peace a moment, I'll speak only to the original poster, not to them.

I'm not a gunsmith, but I have been using Sigmas for trainers/loaners for 15 years, and have had them completely apart many times and tried every non-destructive mod conceivable. I discussed the mods with S&W engineers in regards to IDPA legal/safety issues, regarding the likely and "unlikely but possible" failure modes for modifications and spring removal. All the mods are legal for IDPA, since the failure modes are that the gun does not fire: annoying, but the gun does not blow up.

The "pigtail" spring is widely believed to be useless, but it does serve the function of keeping the sear pressed completely to the rear relative to the sear block. That insures the sear engages the striker fully at a consistent angle. Without it, the sear to striker engagement can vary a little from shot to shot.
It is not likely, but possible, that the combination of a slightly shorter cocking of the striker in combination with hard primers could cause a failure to fire.
Not likely but possible. A rare event, like getting hit by lightning, if you will.

On second thought, it is not worth it to get another tirade of insults from the people who believe the "pigtail" spring is a useless item put into the gun by an idiot, so forget everything I said. Just take out any parts you don't like and have fun.
 
Thanks for the information. The more the better. Not saying the spring is useless or that any part installed by any gun maker is useless. Just don't want it in mine, pistol is not used for a self defense weapon. If anyone is going to use the Sigma for SD then leave it stock.
 
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Pig Tail Spring

I hesitate to say anything because, quite frankly, I am tired of being insulted and called names by the Sigma spring removal advocates.
But if they will just hold their peace a moment, I'll speak only to the original poster, not to them.

I'm not a gunsmith, but I have been using Sigmas for trainers/loaners for 15 years, and have had them completely apart many times and tried every non-destructive mod conceivable. I discussed the mods with S&W engineers in regards to IDPA legal/safety issues, regarding the likely and "unlikely but possible" failure modes for modifications and spring removal. All the mods are legal for IDPA, since the failure modes are that the gun does not fire: annoying, but the gun does not blow up.

The "pigtail" spring is widely believed to be useless, but it does serve the function of keeping the sear pressed completely to the rear relative to the sear block. That insures the sear engages the striker fully at a consistent angle. Without it, the sear to striker engagement can vary a little from shot to shot.
It is not likely, but possible, that the combination of a slightly shorter cocking of the striker in combination with hard primers could cause a failure to fire.
Not likely but possible. A rare event, like getting hit by lightning, if you will.

On second thought, it is not worth it to get another tirade of insults from the people who believe the "pigtail" spring is a useless item put into the gun by an idiot, so forget everything I said. Just take out any parts you don't like and have fun.
Click to expand...

I joined this forum to glean as much knowledge about these SW weapons before I jump in and buy a couple.

I would much rather read about how to keep the gun stock---and DEPENDABLE--- than how to make a hot rod out of it. I have taken many a vehicle apart and put it back together in a fashion the designer did not have in mind. Doing this has left me stranded for many hours on the road side because my 'fixes' did not work.

My weapons are primarily for SD and HD and would rather have one work when I needed it than be a bit sportier while I am playing with it.

So, sorry for the flack you receive but I appreciated this post. Oh yea...never been struck by lightning either!
 
My last post on this subject. If you think removing the pigtail spring caused a problem then put it back in.
Just read the S&W patent on the Sigma and what is said about the spring, by their engineers.
 
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