30 30 question
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Qc Pistolero
Member
Of course having some bore measurements would help but as a starter if you are in a hurry,.309 to .310 would be a good place to start.
If you want just a plinker,plain base bullets at around 1300fps are great(125gr and up).If you want to duplicate factory ammo(1900 to 2200fps),gas checks on a 150 to 180gr bullet are mandatory.Good powders for the first one is Unique and IMR 3031 for the second type.But a lot of similar burning rate powders will make a good job.The 30-30 really is a very flexible round when it comes to cast bullets.Just make sure to open up the case mouth by expanding properly(Lyman M die does a great job for that).
If you want just a plinker,plain base bullets at around 1300fps are great(125gr and up).If you want to duplicate factory ammo(1900 to 2200fps),gas checks on a 150 to 180gr bullet are mandatory.Good powders for the first one is Unique and IMR 3031 for the second type.But a lot of similar burning rate powders will make a good job.The 30-30 really is a very flexible round when it comes to cast bullets.Just make sure to open up the case mouth by expanding properly(Lyman M die does a great job for that).
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Started loading .30-30 cast bullet loads about 40 years ago. Both of my kids grew up with Winchester Model 94's, now all of my grandkids have them as well (cleaned me out, as a matter of fact). Still loading all the fired brass all the kids send to me every year (don't think they have ever learned that .30-30 ammo can be bought at any well stocked retail store). I use the Lee C309-170F mold, cast with 50% wheel weights and 50% Linotype metal, Hornady crimp-on gas checks, sized .309" with NRA formula Alox lube, 30 grains H-335 and standard primers. That load has filled freezers with venison going on 3 generations now (nine grandkids, 3 great-grandkids, all well fed).
Ditto the prior post recommending the Lyman M-die for expanding case mouths to easily seat cast bullets. Nothing better.
Ditto the prior post recommending the Lyman M-die for expanding case mouths to easily seat cast bullets. Nothing better.
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Qc Pistolero
Member
.308 to .311 has been working for many 30wcf shooters for several decades.
The easy method to find your bore diameter is; shoot a factory round, then measure the case mouth opening of the fired brass. That will get you very close without slugging the barrel.
The easy method to find your bore diameter is; shoot a factory round, then measure the case mouth opening of the fired brass. That will get you very close without slugging the barrel.
Cast bullet diameter is no more important and possibly less important than nose diameter. Gas checked bullets sized to 0.001" or 0.002" over groove diameter combined with a nose that had a cylindrical portion that fit snugly in the lands usually gave me the best accuracy. A bore riding nose is a basic feature for shooting tight groups with cast rifle bullets.
Bear in mind that bullets that in theory should group great do not always do so. It always comes down to testing different combinations in a particular rifle.
Bear in mind that bullets that in theory should group great do not always do so. It always comes down to testing different combinations in a particular rifle.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Most times the 30-30 is loaded with a .308" jacketed bullet and a .309" Cast Bullet. I use the 30-30 Cast bullets from Missouri Bullets with success. Now they are available coated which is even better.
I use H4198, IMR3031, SR4759 or Trail Boss. There is no leading at all with the Hi-Tek coated bullets.
Missouri Bullet Company
Missouri Bullet Company
I use H4198, IMR3031, SR4759 or Trail Boss. There is no leading at all with the Hi-Tek coated bullets.
Missouri Bullet Company
Missouri Bullet Company
smoothshooter
Member
What velocities are you getting with that load?
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And just so it is mentioned, no pointed bullets that might set off the primers of the rounds in the magazine tube...
gwpercle
Member
Use bullets with a flat point...these are designed for lever guns with tubular magazines. Even a round nose will press against the next primer ....that bothers me . Flat Nose Only.
I like the 170 grain FP with a gas check , sized to .309 works in my 1970's model 94.
Gary
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DWalt
Member
I have tried loading the .30-30 with 170 grain FP lead bullets made for the .30-30 from Missouri Bullet Co.. I have yet to find a load (light or heavy) which groups very well from my M94. They might hit somewhere on the paper at 100 yards.
The concern about using round nose or even pointed bullets in a tubular magazine is largely a myth. I remember an article in, I think, one of the older Gun Digest editions in which the author did extensive experiments to see if he could get a primer to go off under recoil in the tubular magazine of an M94 as the result of using pointed bullets (exposed lead, not FMJ). He couldn't. Not to recommend the practice of using pointed bullets in tubular magazines, but just to point out that it may not be nearly as hazardous as everyone thinks. I have never heard of such an in-magazine detonation actually happening.
The concern about using round nose or even pointed bullets in a tubular magazine is largely a myth. I remember an article in, I think, one of the older Gun Digest editions in which the author did extensive experiments to see if he could get a primer to go off under recoil in the tubular magazine of an M94 as the result of using pointed bullets (exposed lead, not FMJ). He couldn't. Not to recommend the practice of using pointed bullets in tubular magazines, but just to point out that it may not be nearly as hazardous as everyone thinks. I have never heard of such an in-magazine detonation actually happening.
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The Hornady jacketed 170 grain flat point made for the 30-30 is .308 behind the cannelure and .300 forward of the cannelure.
It alway amazed me how well these bullets shot in a very worn bore in my 1943 two groove Remington 03-A3 30-06.
olskool
Member
about 310 and if I may suggest a powder for lead it would be H4198
In almost any 30 caliber I use the Lyman 311 041 170 gr FN gas check bullet. For playing around loads I use 11 gr of unique in the 30-30...in any necked 30 cal round 300 S 308 30-06 and even others 13-13.5 Unique. Hunting loads get other powders. My 64s shoot that load just fine...and even the Unique loads will stop a deer. I use the same bullet shape but a 319 mould to cast for my 32 Sp. M 64s. I do not have to shoot more than 75 yds to shoot any deer...usually much less
DWalt
Member
I have used the same MBC lead bullet with 26 grains of IMR 4198 in .300 Savage, and it shoots an adequate but not spectacular group. I find 23 grains of IMR 4227 does a little better in the Savage. My best performing .223 loads also use IMR 4198 (21.5 grains with 50-55 grain jacketed bullets). Many years ago one of my friends who was a good bench rest shooter told me that if you couldn't come up with an excellent load for the .223 using IMR 4198, you needed to get another rifle. He was right. And I have used nothing else but 4198 for the .223 since.
Lead bullets out of a mod. 94 are ok but my father taught me
that I could usually get more deer on the ground with the first
shot, if I used a 150 or 165gr copper jacket Spitzer bullet placed
in the chamber, for the first shot, down range.
If I missed, the flat nose bullets were my last hope but they did
work well in the deep woods, better than the pointed bullet.
Heads or tails............
that I could usually get more deer on the ground with the first
shot, if I used a 150 or 165gr copper jacket Spitzer bullet placed
in the chamber, for the first shot, down range.
If I missed, the flat nose bullets were my last hope but they did
work well in the deep woods, better than the pointed bullet.
Heads or tails............
DWalt
Member
That was one of the tricks used by deer hunters who reloaded .30-30 using spitzer bullets and a M94 or Marlin. One cartridge in the chamber and one in the magazine. If you couldn't get a deer with two shots, then you probably couldn't with 20.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I agree, I have often said you can use any bullet shape you want in a tubular magazine as long as you load only one bullet in the tube. There is a concern though. Not all bullets will reliably expand at the lower velocities associated with the 30-30. Most bullets used for a 30-30 are specifically designed to expand at those lower velocities so take care when choosing your hunting bullets.
For different reasons than their ability to have magazines full of spitzers, my favorite .30-30s are the Remington Model 788 and Savage Model 99. With both home cast and jacketed bullets none of my tube magazine .30-30s have been as accurate as my Remington .30-30. Most Savage 99s group tighter than most tube magazine .30-30s. That was true for all the Savage 99s and tube magazine lever actions that I owned.
However, the real reason I favor .30-30 Savage Model 99s is I have an irrational attraction to their classic design and they give too short brass life reloading higher pressure cartridges. This is not news. During the 1920s or 1930s Jack O'Conner wrote the same thing about 99s. He often left his famously written up .270 Winchester at home to hunt deer with a .250 Savage Model 99. At the time he did not have the option of using a front lock up Browning or Sako lever action. I do. Some of us are dumb enough to like Colt Peace Makers. Others are dumb enough to like Savage Model 99s.
However, the real reason I favor .30-30 Savage Model 99s is I have an irrational attraction to their classic design and they give too short brass life reloading higher pressure cartridges. This is not news. During the 1920s or 1930s Jack O'Conner wrote the same thing about 99s. He often left his famously written up .270 Winchester at home to hunt deer with a .250 Savage Model 99. At the time he did not have the option of using a front lock up Browning or Sako lever action. I do. Some of us are dumb enough to like Colt Peace Makers. Others are dumb enough to like Savage Model 99s.
One way to address that is to use 130 grain spitzers that are designed for lighter game. In addition to their thinner jackets you can boost their velocity. Also their shorter noses fit the Remington's box magazine better.
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I bought a bunch of stuff back in Sept from an estate where the reloader died from smoke inhalation in a house fire. I am still going through all the stuff. I have found more than 300 30-30s loaded with(I think) 125 gr 30 cal hollowpoints..flat nose style. Even found a box or two Speer 125 gr hp bullets I shot a few out of the Win 54 I have. They shot ok in the old gun. In all the batch the fellow had loaded some 150 gr Rem Bronze points. Loading data on them looked ok..So tried em in the 54 and the 788. I even tried one or two in the Winchester 64 lever gun. They shot great. Probably not enough velocity to expand reliably in game. I must say..,in the Winchester and the 788 you can push the envelope, reloading a bit warmer. Have an old Savage 325?/340 30-30 and would not push the envelope with that one locking lug gun, though it is an accurate shooter. Since I have many other rifles for shooting deer I still think the 30-30(and 32 Special) is a short range proposition and am happy with my cast bullet loads for the under 75 yd shots
DWalt
Member
The Savage 99 is superior in every way to the Winchester 94. The very first Savage 1899s were chambered for the .303 Savage cartridge. While not dimensionally identical to the .30-30, ballistics are very close. The .303 Savage was usually loaded with 190 grain bullets. The .303 Savage had a good reputation for penetration in larger game. Later, the Savage 99 was chambered in .30-30. Ammunition is obsolete, but the case can be easily formed from .30-30 brass, except the .30-30 has a slightly smaller base diameter. Both use the standard .308 bullet diameter. I wrap a thin masking tape band around the base ahead of the rim to act as a case centralizer for the first firing.
Excluding a SMLE I have not owned a Savage .303 yet. My cousin inherited one. His family used it to harvest venison for decades. While his father was still young he carved a woman in the side of its butt stock. She was, umm, attired the way single men dream of women being, ah, dressed. Later he shortened the stock for my aunt. While sitting waiting for a deer to walk past some wives would have whittled off the competition but the art survived.
In my wanders I did buy an odd ball item for use in .303 Savages, an adapter to shoot .32 S&W. I'd forgotten about it. Similar adapters for a variety of rifle cartridges used to be fairly common in gun show junk boxes.
Tubular magazines have another seldom mentioned draw back. As they are emptied the weight hung from the barrel is reduced. That has to change the way the barrel vibrates as bullets pass through it. Under barrel tube magazines were not designed for best accuracy. They were designed to increase the rate of fire on battle fields.
My favorite tube magazine .30-30 is the Savage Model 170 pump action. With their short magazine tube they group better than tube magazine lever actions. They were also easy on the budget.
In my wanders I did buy an odd ball item for use in .303 Savages, an adapter to shoot .32 S&W. I'd forgotten about it. Similar adapters for a variety of rifle cartridges used to be fairly common in gun show junk boxes.
Tubular magazines have another seldom mentioned draw back. As they are emptied the weight hung from the barrel is reduced. That has to change the way the barrel vibrates as bullets pass through it. Under barrel tube magazines were not designed for best accuracy. They were designed to increase the rate of fire on battle fields.
My favorite tube magazine .30-30 is the Savage Model 170 pump action. With their short magazine tube they group better than tube magazine lever actions. They were also easy on the budget.
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I use a old Ideal mold for 32/20, 115 FP sized to .312" poured from WWs
shooting at approx 1250fps. Plinking and squirrel load. Fooling around
with spitzers in lever guns besides the issue of bullet points resting on
primers. Before you put one in magazine make sure that OAL of cartridge
will not be to long to cycle. You could end up with a jam that is a PIA to
clear, especially in Marlins. I have done some outstanding 30/30 shooting
with the Speer 130 HP in Marlin 336. The bullet works fine in 94Ws but I
wouldn't trust 94 Win with loads I am shooting in Marlin. They are up
around 2800 fps and get unbelievable groups for a lever 30/30 at 100yds.
I've also loaded the 308 1/2 jacket Plinkers with good accuracy in 1600fps
range. My Varmit load was a Speer 110g Varmiter, a Fn Hp made for 30/30
The Sierra 110 FMJ for 30 carbine is anther good accurate bullet for plinking and small game. Most of my 30/30 tinkering was done with bullets
lighter than 150g. I have tried up to 180s but there isn't much point in
those. Fore store bought on deer sized game it's hard to beat Rem 150 g
cor-loc.
shooting at approx 1250fps. Plinking and squirrel load. Fooling around
with spitzers in lever guns besides the issue of bullet points resting on
primers. Before you put one in magazine make sure that OAL of cartridge
will not be to long to cycle. You could end up with a jam that is a PIA to
clear, especially in Marlins. I have done some outstanding 30/30 shooting
with the Speer 130 HP in Marlin 336. The bullet works fine in 94Ws but I
wouldn't trust 94 Win with loads I am shooting in Marlin. They are up
around 2800 fps and get unbelievable groups for a lever 30/30 at 100yds.
I've also loaded the 308 1/2 jacket Plinkers with good accuracy in 1600fps
range. My Varmit load was a Speer 110g Varmiter, a Fn Hp made for 30/30
The Sierra 110 FMJ for 30 carbine is anther good accurate bullet for plinking and small game. Most of my 30/30 tinkering was done with bullets
lighter than 150g. I have tried up to 180s but there isn't much point in
those. Fore store bought on deer sized game it's hard to beat Rem 150 g
cor-loc.
DWalt that is a very good idea on that masking tape. Fellow down the road just offered me a 99 in 303 Sav..for a pretty fair price I guess. (about 400 bucks). I have, so far, been resisting. I do have an old box of 190 gr Winchester bullets down on the shelf....and don't know why!
trapper9260
Member
Thank you for posting this.I always went by the barrel slug and did not find a easy way for the bore. Also in my 30cals.I mainly size my cast to .310 and get a better group. Also i make my own boolit lube that works for all the cast boolits . I am also glad some one brought up not use pointed bullets because of the tube feed. I use mainly flat nose. The Dia of your boolit matters for cast for more then one reason.One is groups and also leading due to too small of a boolit.Jacket is different.
Tex1001
Member
I got a 303 Savage take down for a bargain basement price. I started all of the drama of forming cases, but quickly found PPU cases and Lee makes 303 Savage dies, so I'm set up.
Prvi Partizan Reloading Brass 303 Savage Bag of 100 - MPN: PPU303S
Note: Lee's 308 Win Factory Crimp Die is the perfect size for 303 Savage.
_______________________
I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.
DWalt
Member
Yes, I have a Lee .303 die set. I have formed several hundred .303 Savage cases from .30-30, it's very easy to do, just a single pass through the FL die. And no drama involved The case doesn't even need trimming. I slice up masking tape into strips about 1/4" wide and 3" long to wrap round the base for the first firing. That allows the case to expand uniformly in the chamber. And the tape can then be peeled off and re-used if you wish. I have found one new box of Remington .303 Savage and a box of .303 Savage reloads in original .303 Savage cases, so I am pretty well fixed. My Model 99 is the takedown style and has a Marble tang peep sight.
.303 Savage cases can also be formed from .220 Swift brass, and there is a lot of drama to that. I don't recommend that method.
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This was not well thought through.
I'll use U.S. G.I. .30-06s to illustrate. The American ideal is for groove diameter to equal bullet diameter. Springfield 1903 and 1903A3 groove diameters of were specified .308" minus zero, plus .002". Their groves were 3 times as wide as their lands. In contrast, U.S. 1917 "Enfield" rifling continued use of British rifling ideas carried forward from British Pattern 1914 .303s. As a war time expedient U.S. 1917s were Pattern 1914s with .30-06 barrels and bolt faces. Their grooves made up 50% of the bore. British thinking was that since lands displace metal it was preferable for groove diameter to be 2 or 3 thousandths larger than bullet diameter. Consequently, U.S. 1917 barrel design specifications were a few thousandths larger than Springfield barrels. Manufactured within their tolerances U.S. .30-06 barrel groove diameters vary .004" to .005". However, Springfield and Enfield chamber specifications were the same.
The specifications for early 20th Century U.S. barrels are in Hatcher's Notebook which I no longer have a copy of.
In addition to tolerances in chamber specifications variations in case neck thickness and brass spring back affect internal diameter of once fired brass. To help plan which bullet molds and lubricator/sizer dies to experiment with most reloaders measure their groove diameter in thousandths of an inch. For our purposes measuring the inside of a fired case neck will not substitute for an accurate measurement.
I'll use U.S. G.I. .30-06s to illustrate. The American ideal is for groove diameter to equal bullet diameter. Springfield 1903 and 1903A3 groove diameters of were specified .308" minus zero, plus .002". Their groves were 3 times as wide as their lands. In contrast, U.S. 1917 "Enfield" rifling continued use of British rifling ideas carried forward from British Pattern 1914 .303s. As a war time expedient U.S. 1917s were Pattern 1914s with .30-06 barrels and bolt faces. Their grooves made up 50% of the bore. British thinking was that since lands displace metal it was preferable for groove diameter to be 2 or 3 thousandths larger than bullet diameter. Consequently, U.S. 1917 barrel design specifications were a few thousandths larger than Springfield barrels. Manufactured within their tolerances U.S. .30-06 barrel groove diameters vary .004" to .005". However, Springfield and Enfield chamber specifications were the same.
The specifications for early 20th Century U.S. barrels are in Hatcher's Notebook which I no longer have a copy of.
In addition to tolerances in chamber specifications variations in case neck thickness and brass spring back affect internal diameter of once fired brass. To help plan which bullet molds and lubricator/sizer dies to experiment with most reloaders measure their groove diameter in thousandths of an inch. For our purposes measuring the inside of a fired case neck will not substitute for an accurate measurement.
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one eye joe
US Veteran
WOW---THAT'S A GREAT TIP, 22shtur ! ! ! THANKS FOR PASSING IT ON. I NEVER READ THAT ANYWHERE, BEFORE THIS.......
