32-20 Target Model, Need the Experts!!

[Casual Smith Nut]

Hello I've been on a 32 kick lately and acquired a target model 32-20. I took lots of photos so that the experts here can help identify and weigh in on some of the markings. It's worn but in great shape mechanically with a great bore. My observation is that there might be some inconsistencies with parts of the gun vs it's serial number approximate dating. Another observation is concerning the markings which indicate that this gun went back to the factory sometime in its life.


Barrel:6 inch barrel stamped 106704 underneath with a small "K" left of the number. Right of the serial number is a Diamond B.

Extractor: underneath the extractor star the star itself has 39603 stamped at 6 O'clock position and also 12 stamped at 9 O'clock position.

Cylinder: On the cylinder underneath the extractor it has a Diamond B stamped and a small number 2. On the face of the cylinder it looks like the 106704 was stamped over the 39603. My guess here is that the gun went to the factory for new cylinder and they used an older cylinder and extractor.

Grip and Butt: On the butt there is a Star stamped which I know is an indicator of factory trip. When I remove the grips (also penciled in with matching serial) the grip frame has 8. 21 near the bottom and a Diamond B also. I'm guessing that means factory return trip was August 1921. However near the top of the grip frame but still underneath the grips is stamped the number 43. Is this also a date or does it mean something else?

Rear sight strap: stamped with matching serial 106704.

Front sight is a Lyman rib top and bead which I'm guessing is from the factory. The blade on which the top rib and bead sits has a slight wiggle but not enough to for me to be concerned. I'm not good enough offhand to matter LOL.

The yoke and crane assembly has a small detent which keep it in place even after removing the yoke screw.

I carefully removed the side plate to peek at the guts. The rebound slide has "Pat'd Feb. 6. 06"

I look forward to hearing from anyone to get approximate date of shipment based on the details and serial. I look forward to shooting this old revolver. The action works beautifully and has a fantastic trigger which is no surprise.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

More photos

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Additional photos

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Final photos

 

[Truckman]

I can't answer the questions with any level of authenticity, but this is definitely a gun I would letter......Ben

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Yeah truckman I'd like to letter it also. Anyone here recently letter a gun and know the approx waiting time? I imagine it's pretty lengthy.

Doing my own research some inconsistencies I notice are that the 32 Winchester CTG marking on the barrel should be to an earlier serial than is actually stamped on it. Also perhaps there should be the grip tang serrations or stripes on a target model in 106xxx range.

I'm wondering if the frame belonged to an older target 38 m&p frame which the factory mated to an older 32-20 barrel and older 32-20 cylinder and then stamped appropriately.

 

[JP@AK]

This is a very interesting .32-20 HE.

The serial number on the butt and barrel flat indicate a revolver from the early 1920s. It matches the one on the underside of the sight leaf, which tells us a lot. The date stamp on the grip frame does, indeed, signify factory Service Department work in August, 1921. The diamond B indicates factory reblue and probably other work as well. That is consistent with the date stamp and other factors we can see in your photos.

The barrel is interesting because it is stamped 32 Winchester CTG. That tells us the SD used a much older barrel when this thing was put together in 1921. That caliber stamp hadn't been used since about 1914.

Here's what I think happened. Someone ordered a 6" target model. The factory didn't have one in inventory, so the SD put one together for him. When the SD built a gun with exchanged parts, they marked the barrel and other parts with the same serial number as the frame. In this case, they used a much older barrel that was available, but marked it with the correct serial number. Apparently, the cylinder and extractor assembly was old also. 39601 is a serial number from c. 1908.

I think that explanation accounts for the oddities.

I also agree that this gun demands a letter. It could be very interesting to read what the HF comes up with.

 

[JP@AK]

Anyone here recently letter a gun and know the approx waiting time? I imagine it's pretty lengthy.

I just saw a report yesterday that a letter was turned around in four weeks.

 

[Muley Gil]

Those dished, non-medallion grips are pre WW I.

Duh, I meant to say 1910 or earlier. I had a 1906 shipped .32-20 Target years ago and it had the same dished grips.

 

[handejector]

I'm wondering if the frame belonged to an older target 38 m&p frame which the factory mated to an older 32-20 barrel and older 32-20 cylinder and then stamped appropriately.

I think you have hit upon the most likely scenario for this gun.
The dished grips which are numbered to the gun are not seen past about 1910.
The chafing bushings on hammer and trigger were deleted in 1915 with the 4th change.
The patent date on the rebound slide was deleted with the 3rd change in 1909.

So, even allowing for overlapping features as changes were phased in, a 32/20 with #106704 is WAY too late to have those action features and those grips.
I agree, someone had their 38 M&P Target which was a 1905-2nd Change converted to 32/20 and the Factory used a hodgepodge of parts on hand to convert it.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Jack, I agree it was probably a piece-together factory job which I think is neat since it makes it interesting.

Muley, I too had a hunch that the dish top grips were for an older gun than typical of 106xxx serial number for 32-20 hand ejector. That additionally makes me think the frame may have originally been for a 38 m&p hand ejector.

Definitely worth a letter to get the story.

Edit: Lee must have posted before I got my response put in there. Thanks Lee! I agree.

 

[handejector]

Also-
A 32/20 with #106704 is WAY too late to have these features:
The old extractor with the rounded ends instead of dowels.
The caliber mark you pointed out.

A letter probably won't solve this mystery. If it shipped as a 38, asking for a letter on a 32/20 with that number won't connect to this gun.
IF it was a converted 38, there probably won't be any records available through SWHF for work done in 1921.
If I was going to letter it, I would ask Roy if he thought it shipped as a 38 Target with LOTS of CLEAR pics of all these odd features!

 

[Model19man]

That's great news. I sent a letter in 3 weeks ago. Check was cashed last week. No letter yet - I am on pins and needles!

I just saw a report yesterday that a letter was turned around in four weeks.

 

[JP@AK]

Good catch, Lee. It didn't even occur to me that the frame may have started life as a .38. That serial number would fit all the features you pointed out that I missed. Even the stocks seem to have the 106xxx serial number. So the barrel and cylinder were changed in 1921, so the gun could be converted to a .32-20 target instead of a .38 target, using older parts. That would also explain the correctly serialized rear sight.

Still a very interesting gun.

 

[Drm50]

Is there a way to confirm that conversion work was done by S&W? I know just enough to be dangerous. I would have known it wasn't factory 32/20.
But only because I've been studying 1905HE, particularly 32/20 Targets.
I would have been interested in buying it but would have no idea as to value. I'm only to aware of what a hi condition Target goes for.
I've been tempted to put sights on a fixed sight model. I never had the heart to chop on nice originals of any flavor. 32/20 S&W and Colts fairly common around here, Target models about as common as unicorns.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

I'd assume the work was done at S&W Factory due to the restamping, but only a letter would confirm that. I didn't have to spend much on the gun thankfully. I was on the hunt for a Target 32-20 anyway. I was only counting on it being a correctly timed gun with a good bore. The rest of the story just makes it more interesting. Proof will be in the pudding when I get a chance to see how it shoots.

 

[glowe]

That is a 38 cylinder, not a 32--20. The charge holes are too large to be 32 Winchester, look at the image below. The gun has to be a 38 even with the barrel stamping, so do not know what is going on with the barrel. I happen to have a 1908 106XXX 38 Target and a 1924 110XXX 32 W.C.F. Target shown with a couple of quick images for comparison.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Gary,
I'll have a look at it when I get home from work. I had put in 32 SW Long snap caps in it to run the action. They held fine just like they have in other 32-20 chambered K frames. I think a 32 Long rim would not hold in the same way if chambered for 38/357. I do know I put calipers on the cylinder throats, and they measure .314 though not as precise as mic.

 

[glowe]

The plot thickens. Maybe it is an optical illusion?? Here is another option. I see a white ring around every cylinder and wonder if they sleeved the cylinder down to 32 Winchester????

 

[raljr1]

interesting gun...curious to see what it ends up being at birth

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

I see what you are referring to Gary. That ring around each charge hole is residue from the snap cap dummy rounds… aluminum I think. I'll chamber some rounds though at home and check the fit this evening to be sure. Throats are definitely 32 cal when I measured those last night.

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary & I have gone back and forth about the anomalies with this revolver. A plausible explanation is that this gun was originally a .38 target revolver. The evidence is the numbered pre-1910 grips, the 1906-dated rebound slide (which is probably keyed to the frame on its underside), and the rounded extractor star ends, which are earlier than 1921. The butt serial number of 106XXX , for a .38, would be 1906 - 1908 time frame.

The gun went back to the factory in 1921, at which time the caliber was changed to 32-20. The barrel was either replaced, or sleeved. If replaced, it was numbered to the frame. If sleeved, the caliber roll marking was changed to 32 Winchester. The cylinder was either sleeved to 32-20, or replaced and serial-numbered to the frame.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[JP@AK]

The cylinder was either sleeved to 32-20, or replaced and serial-numbered to the frame.

I agree with you, Mike. It seems to me there is evidence that it was an original .32-20 cylinder repurposed for this revolver. It has both the new 106xxx serial number and an old one (39601) that would date to about 1908.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

If sleeved either at the barrel or cylinder would there be any indicators to look for? Such as seams? From memory I can't recall seeing any indication of sleeves. My guess is retro fit of actual 32 cal cylinder and barrel.

 

[JP@AK]

My guess is retro fit of actual 32 cal cylinder and barrel.

I believe that's right. I mentioned my reason regarding the cylinder to Mike in my previous post.

As for the barrel, the cartridge stamp on the left side is identical to the 32 Winchester stamp on the four that I own that are old enough to have that stamp (before 1914). It's hard for me to imagine the roll stamp would still be handy in 1921, and still capable of making that very clean stamp on the barrel. Could be, of course.

On the other hand, why did they still have a 6" .32-20 barrel around to put on your gun in 1921 (that is, one with the long-since abandoned 32 Win cartridge stamp)? There is nothing easy about explaining what was done with your gun in 1921.

All we can do now is speculate, which is what we are doing. It's fun though.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

All we can do now is speculate, which is what we are doing. It's fun though.

Since we are speculating... How about, the owner had a .32-20 target with a damaged frame and a .38 M&P. Sent both of them to S&W to fix his target. How'd I do??

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Yep the speculation and reasoning is half of the fun of these old guns. The other half is actually shooting them.

Guy's comment cracked me up

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Update on chambering 32-20 cartridges: they chamber and fit fine as they should. No visible indication of sleeve on cylinder or barrel.

 

[N7BLW]

32-20 serial numbers

Here's a list of serial numbers in my data base near yours with confirmed ship dates:
104319 3/22/22
105214 3/14/22
106783 4/20/22
106813 8/19/24
108615 6/22/22

This shows a good example of S&W not shipping in S/N order.

 

[StrawHat]

...hard for me to imagine the roll stamp would still be handy in 1921, and still capable of making that very clean stamp on the barrel. Could be, of course…

They still had a "45 CAL.MODEL 1950" stamp 16 years after the last one was sold. And it produced great impressions.

Kevin