32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!

[mmaher94087]

FWIW, I've seen references to 10 grains black powder also.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Hey Phil,
Wow! That's a rare single cavity iron mold for sure and a late one to boot. Very serviceable. You could make thousands of bullets with that iron mold and sell them to target shooters! I can't imagine what other gun that bullet would be for since it only lists as the 32-44 target for bullet design, diameter, and weight. Great collectable!

I looked it up in my historical Ideal/Lyman list and it shows up but I always thought it was only offered in the old wood handled molds? I guess I was wrong. This would have to date post 1926 to ? but I also noticed that it was used in Ideal cases that were designed for a short range rifle...I don't know which one though?

see photo:

& Thanks much for posting!


Murph

Hi Murph!

It is surprising to me also that Lyman would offer a Mold for this Bullet so relatively recently.

Possibly they kept the Cherry-Cutter on hand, and one could write to them and Order a Mold.

And, indeed, I know of nothing else Cartridge wise for this Bullet, other than the .32 - 44, and as a "light" Bullet for the .320RR and the .32 Ideal Rifle Cartridge of that era.

 

[BMur]

32 Ideal Rifle cartridge

Phil,
I looked up the 32 Ideal Rifle cartridge. See attached photo.
Looks like the .323 diameter bullet that was originally designed for the 32-44 Target functioned well in the Stevens Rifle. So that justified the continued production of the bullet mold. It still is absolutely the Target bullet casting so it still could have been purchased for a Target 32/44 S&W!

Murph

 

[Green Frog]

I looked in my copy (old issue) of Cartridges of the World, and couldn't find a listing for the 32-44 target round. Where can I get information about it?


Froggie

 

[Oyeboteb]

I looked in my copy (old issue) of Cartridges of the World, and couldn't find a listing for the 32-44 target round. Where can I get information about it?


Froggie

What do you want to know?

There's a bunch of detailed info in a prior recent thread about the Cartridge, I'll see if I can find it and post you the link.

Here -

?Value on a N Mod #3 ?

 

[Green Frog]

Mostly I'd like to know the case dimensions... I'd been mistakenly assuming it was a target loading of the standard 32 S&W L case.

Froggie

 

[mmaher94087]

Green Frog, Some information on the .32-44 round is found in "Cartridges and Their Handguns", Charles Sudam, 1977, P145. This is out of print; a paperback. The info is sometimes taken from cartridges that Chuck (RIP) knocked down to measure and may not always reflect the published factory specs. The book spec's the Head stamp, Rim, Case Mouth, Case Length, Bullet Diameter, Bullet weight and Powder Charge. Some info can be missing such as the bullet diameter of the .32-44. I'm sure there must be another (better?) reference but I don't have it.

Add: I can scan or supply you with the .32-44 info from the book. I'll be out tomorrow for a while though.

 

[BMur]

Match loading for the 32-44 S&W Target

Hey Charlie,
I just received a tracking number for my 32-44 Target loader so now I'm feeling better about it making it?

So, I have already started with my case work for "match" loading my New Model 3 Target 32-44.

In a previous post Phil mentioned using the 32/20 Winchester rifle cartridge as a cartridge base for loading the 32-44 target round.

I've gotten that far with my match loading and I agree with Phil that this case is a perfect match to load the 32-44 target round.

I've already used a depth guage on my cylinder and measured the case stops, chamber width, throat, bore land and groove and referred to my early loading manual data previously posted. This is what I have so far for the case specs:

Bullet diameter: .323 (cast)
Bullet weight : 83 grains
Bullet type: Inside lubricated, Pure lead, Flat nose, double ban
Bullet lube: Soft "Black powder lubricant"
Case length: .980 (Measured and proven from my original Target cylinder)
Overall case length: *1.020 ( bullet slightly sticking out) as seen on an early UMC cartridge box. I will have to prove this however because I plan on using the full load of 11 grains of FFFG powder in the Swiss load as recommended by another member. Swiss powder is more powerful than most.
Case diameter: .347
Head diameter: .403
Powder select: Swiss Black powder
Powder load: 11 grains FFFG(compressed) Weight not volume.


This is a "Match loading" for my 32-44 cylinder chamber to case stop and throat. Every aspect of the loading will be weighed and measured to duplicate each round as closely as possible for better results at the range.

The 32/20 Winchester rifle cartridge is a perfect match from a case width, head diameter standpoint. I will have to match trim all the cases to be loaded and also expand only slightly the throat of the Winchester 32/20 case to meet and match the bullet diameter but the case is "perfect" for the task and I expect excellent results.

* Will prove with final product

Murph

I have to wait for the loading tool to confirm my final bullet diameter since it has a bullet sizer included. Mikes came out to .321 so we will see shortly.

 

[Green Frog]

Thanks Mike, that would be great. I'll send you a PM with my e-mail so you can send me a scan.

Froggie

 

[orbruce]

B. Mower,
Great and rare kit. Can you convey please what the two powder cups are marked in your kit? Do they match the 1891 recommended black powder load for the 32-44?
Should be 11 grains on the larger cup and 6 grains for the Gallery or ball load?

Thanks for sharing.



Murph

Murph,

The measures are not marked. I estimated the large at 12 grains and the small at 7 grains. I believe I used a black powder substitute to measure the capacities.

B. Mower

 

[BMur]

Black powder scoops

B.Mower,
Well, one thing is for sure. Those scoops in your kit are Black Powder scoops. Charlie and I have been looking into the reloading kits. He just recently obtained a 1903 S&W catalog and it shows the exact same kit that is shown in the 1887 catalog with the same Black Powder scoops. In the N&J book they also show a photo of what they call an "early 1900's " reloading kit that is now proven to be later than 1903 and it also shows Black Powder scoops. In fact it's the latest kit that I've ever seen with knurled plungers mixed in with the mushroom type.
So I'm not sure at this point that any of the kits had Semi-Smokeless or Smokeless scoops? Looking at the early reloading catalogs; Du Pont and Kings Smokeless and Semi-Smokeless show much lower "volume" loads. So Smokeless scoops even early ones would be much smaller by volume. Makes me wonder if they ever came out with a smokeless load for the 32-44? (see photo). Another reference that backs up the Ideal catalog loading data from 1891. 11 grains of Black Powder and 83 grain bullet?

My early Ideal tool might be delivered today. Got my fingers crossed. Once it's here I will take some measurements to see what the early tool had to offer so we can cross reference with Mikes post 1902 Target loading tool.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Antique Ideal 32-44 T loader Arrived today

I'm very happy with the early loader and that it arrived safely. It's in better condition than I imagined. See photo's.

The cavity is excellent and the bullet sizing die and case sizing/loading die are also excellent.

I measured both based on a 4 point measurement and averaged in the result. The bullet sizer at 45 degree angles and at each corner of the upper and lower bans for the bullet cavity.

Results:

Bullet diameter "CAST": .323

Sizing Diameter: .321

This is within tolerance of B.Mower's loading kit. He found .320...so that' pretty darn close for these antique loaders! It also matches Mikes circa post 1902 sizing die at .321.

So, I'm pretty confident that we are standing on solid ground here with the original bullet size cast at .323 and the original design cast pure lead bullet sized down between .320/.321. This being Historically accurate for the Smith & Wesson Target .32-44 New Model 3 throughout production.

It's possible that there was a slight change to the bullet design and weight since Mike's post 1902 cavity looks like it has a more rounder bullet? However, basically they are close to matching. I would imagine also that you could use the Revolving Rifle bullet in the 32-44 Target since the diameter is the same.

All of these extreme bullet diameter and weight differences that you find on the internet regarding the 32-44 Target are simply not possible unless you can prove they match another gun of the same caliber. A Target gun has very tight tolerances so it is very "accurate" at the range.

I'm busy for the next few days but after that I will mold some pure lead bullets with this tool and match weigh them within 1 grain. I intend to match load 24 cartridges that will provide 4 complete cylinder loads for the range test.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

It's possible that there was a slight change to the bullet design and weight since Mike's post 1902 cavity looks like it has a more rounder bullet? However, basically they are close to matching. I would imagine also that you could use the Revolving Rifle bullet in the 32-44 Target since the diameter is the same.


Murph

Here's the .320 RR Bullet ( again, a Lyman Mold of relatively modern or recent era, so, quite puzzling to me such would even exist! )

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

There's nothing else which took or takes these diameter Bullets.

The Japanese 'Nambu' Pistol is close, but the Bullet was a different design and weight.

 

[zackie]

Thanks for sharing the information, its very helpful and I guess we all know what to expect. Cheers

 

[Green Frog]

Just for the record, there were several 32 cal and 8 mm rifle cartridges for which the bullet shown would have made an appropriate gallery load. That may also help explain why that mould remained in inventory so long. Oyeboteb, if you take that image over to the Schuetzen forum at ASSRA.COM, somebody will probably recognize it. If I just saw that mould "in the wild" I would assume that it would be a gallery bullet for a 32-40 or one of the German Schuetzen rifles, but I may just be showing my bias based on limited experience.

Froggie

 

[BMur]

Rare molds

Dang Phil,
You have all the good stuff.

That bullet would also work really well in the 32-44 Target but would limit the black powder load unless you seated the bullet with a lot of the nose sticking out?
The Ideal/ Lyman Historical reference Refers once again to the Ideal rifle cartridge for mold number 32359. ( See photo)

I'd bet it was a special order by a customer when the mold was still available. References claim from 1903-1940's for the Stevens rifle. So this mold could have been ordered anytime during those years listed. ( Post 1926, likely much later) Still, not many out there that's for sure!

** Another clue is the cherrie number on each mold? That's the number below the bullet type. So the number below the 32359 is cherrie number 863. That's a late number so the mold was produced probably in the 1930's.

Your other mold has a cherrie number 616. Likely late 20's early 30's but you would also have to cross reference the Suffux R7 stamp. So compared to other molds with the same suffix and cherrie number that might still be " In the box"? A yellow box would be 20's and early dull orange box is 30's. Bright orange box is 40's. I've done a lot of research on Ideal/Lyman. Great collectibles and very well made stuff!!

Remember also that none of these molds that lack fixed handles were made Pre-1926. Reason being that even the early Ideal molds have the Middlefield address. That didn't happen until 1926!
So your Lyman molds are much later.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Dang Phil,
You have all the good stuff.

That bullet would also work really well in the 32-44 Target but would limit the black powder load unless you seated the bullet with a lot of the nose sticking out?
The Ideal/ Lyman Historical reference Refers once again to the Ideal rifle cartridge for mold number 32359. ( See photo)

I'd bet it was a special order by a customer when the mold was still available. References claim from 1903-1940's for the Stevens rifle. So this mold could have been ordered anytime during those years listed. ( Post 1926, likely much later) Still, not many out there that's for sure!

** Another clue is the cherrie number on each mold? That's the number below the bullet type. So the number below the 32359 is cherrie number 863. That's a late number so the mold was produced probably in the 1930's.

Your other mold has a cherrie number 616. Likely late 20's early 30's but you would also have to cross reference the Suffux R7 stamp. So compared to other molds with the same suffix and cherrie number that might still be " In the box"? A yellow box would be 20's and early dull orange box is 30's. Bright orange box is 40's. I've done a lot of research on Ideal/Lyman. Great collectibles and very well made stuff!!

Remember also that none of these molds that lack fixed handles were made Pre-1926. Reason being that even the early Ideal molds have the Middlefield address. That didn't happen until 1926!
So your Lyman molds are much later.

Murph

I'll cast some up soon, and will see how they seem for the .32 - 44 Cartridge.

If it were back-when, we could Mail off a design to 'IDEAL' for a lovely .323 Himmelwright style Wadcutter Mold.

'NOE' and others will gladly make one too, I am sure, if one wanted.

 

[BMur]

Case selection & Comparison

I'm making time today to trim my 32/20 Winchester cases to the proper length. Just wanted to clarify why I have chosen the 32/20 case to load for the 32-44 Target.
Below photos depict candidates for the project. 32 Ideal, 32 Self Loading & the 32/20. ALL of the cases require trimming down to .980 so honestly there is no easy solution. The cost comparison and more importantly "availability" of the cases puts the 32/20 as the obvious choice in my mind. 24 cents per shell for the 32/20 and those are "new cases". The 32 Ideal is a whopping $4.64 per case and the 32 self loading is a bulk purchase of basically old rounds that would have to be completely disassembled, cleaned, trimmed and reloaded.
So that's why I have chosen the 32/20 as the case to manufacture a 32-44 Target black powder load.

Note: The yellow line on the 32/20 case shows the approximate location that the case will be cut, trimmed, and the mouth opened to the proper .321 case mouth diameter to load the target bullet.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Case trimming & Expansion

Ok,
Lots of fun! I'm about half way done with the cases.
First step was to look through my bag of Flea Market drill bits that you can get super cheap. The perfect size to expand the case mouth is a 21/64ths bit. It mic's at .325 so I simply ran fine sand paper on the bit During rotation until it settled in at .323 diameter.
See photo 1

I was pleased that I did not have to anneal (heat) the case. I simply applied a light lubricant and pushed the expander rod (drill bit) into the case mouth by hand. Worked perfectly!

See photo 2 of trimmed case next to original.

Unfortunately, when I was looking through my bag of old 32/20 shells I didn't realized that it was a grab bag of multiple makes/ manufacturers. See photo 3

So much for the " Match test" but it still will be close enough in my opinion since I am picking only the best of the lot.

* Notice the Western case has a deformed primer pocket charge hole? That's not good for a match test!

I use my MTD set to measure all of the charge or "Flash" Holes to make sure they match. That's basically as good as it's going to get. Primer depth and flash hole are matching on the Peters and Remington cases.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Ok,
Lots of fun! I'm about half way done with the cases.
First step was to look through my bag of Flea Market drill bits that you can get super cheap. The perfect size to expand the case mouth is a 21/64ths bit. It mic's at .325 so I simply ran fine sand paper on the bit During rotation until it settled in at .323 diameter.
See photo 1

I was pleased that I did not have to anneal (heat) the case. I simply applied a light lubricant and pushed the expander rod (drill bit) into the case mouth by hand. Worked perfectly!

See photo 2 of trimmed case next to original.

Unfortunately, when I was looking through my bag of old 32/20 shells I didn't realized that it was a grab bag of multiple makes/ manufacturers. See photo 3

So much for the " Match test" but it still will be close enough in my opinion since I am picking only the best of the lot.

* Notice the Western case has a deformed primer pocket charge hole? That's not good for a match test!

I use my MTD set to measure all of the charge or "Flash" Holes to make sure they match. That's basically as good as it's going to get. Primer depth and flash hole are matching on the Peters and Remington cases.

Murph

Good going Murph!!

I also elected to go with .32 - 20 Brass, but you are way ahead of me on 'follow through' as I have not done anything yet other than to gather an Expander Plug, Case Trimmer, and Molds...while 'Work Work' has been taking about all my waking time these last months...

So, go you!!

Woo Hoo!

I'll catch up, eventually!