32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!

Just for the record, there were several 32 cal and 8 mm rifle cartridges for which the bullet shown would have made an appropriate gallery load. That may also help explain why that mould remained in inventory so long. Oyeboteb, if you take that image over to the Schuetzen forum at ASSRA.COM, somebody will probably recognize it. If I just saw that mould "in the wild" I would assume that it would be a gallery bullet for a 32-40 or one of the German Schuetzen rifles, but I may just be showing my bias based on limited experience.

Froggie

Good mention!

I had not thought of .32 - 40 Ballard...or, I had assumed it was same Bullet diameter as .32 - 20 for not having looked in to it!

Indeed, that'd be a contender for either of the Bullets my two "323" Molds throw.

No doubt there are some relatively obscure European Rifle Cartridges also, where they would work nicely.

8mm Mauser is supposed to be .324, so, it is too large really for "as is"...I had checked on that one when originally imagining I might want to Crimp and wondering what Dies I might find to do so.
 
Cases completed

I just want to run through my basic procedure for cutting cases on a small volume basis. If anyone is interested?

If I'm cutting less than 50 cases? I use this simple and very accurate method.
Photo 1
Shows the scribe mark where the case is to be cut.

Photo 2
shows an inverted simple 120 Volt variable speed drill on a bench top with a matching inside diameter rod. In this case a very common .316 diameter bolt that fits snug inside the case mouth.

Photo 3
shows how smoothly the case spins on the drill.

Photo 4
shows the placement of a Dremel with cutting wheel spinning in the opposite direction of the drill and shell. Do not spin at high speed! Low speed of about 250 RPM. This simple method is very fast and surprisingly accurate. It's fun too!!

Photo 5 the completed shells.

I then bag them until ready for the next step in the reloading process.

The next step Is molding the bullets.

Murph
 

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Next step completed

Ok,
Well, I collect the Ideal field loaders but I admit I don't use them much. I prefer the modern stuff. Mainly because they kinda get hot but once you get the hang of it they are pretty fast.

I molded 54 bullets. Weighed each of them and they cast pretty darn close. 84-86 grains. I put aside the 84 & 85 grain bullets for the test shoot. I also measured the bullets cast and they came out to a steady .324. I'm not sure yet if I will size them down. I kind of like the larger diameter bullet for this test since I'm using black powder, "IF" it will chamber? Besides, loading it into the case will down size it to probably about .322 so I'm thinking right now to just load them as cast for the test.

The only real problem I had was the used 32/20 cases did not want to chamber in my 32-44 Target cylinder. Since I don't have a sizing die and since the Ideal loader doesn't size the case( I didn't know that)....I was forced to polish the cases until they fit. So, I strongly recommend if you have a target 32-44 and want to use the 32/20 cases? Buy new ones!

You can see from the photo's that once polished they chambered perfectly and the length I cut them to (.980) is also perfect and ran right to the edge of the case stops. So I'm happy with the outcome so far.

You can also see the bullet that I ran through the bore has "Perfect" contact with both lands and grooves. So I expect pretty accurate pattern shooting at the range.

So, next I will weigh the black powder and see how difficult it will be to load 11 grains of FFFG in this case. I honestly don't expect it to be an issue since the 32 S&W is listed at 9 grains? We shall see.


Murph
 

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Once you figure what you need for powder in an accurate load, consider making a scoop from an old cartridge case. 22 Hornet holds about 14 grains and a 380 case holds 10 or so.

You also can experiment with different granulations. 4fG might be a good fit for this small cartridge.

Kevin
 
First one loaded

I couldn't wait so I weighed an 11 grain FFFG charge and tried the Ideal field loader. It works pretty well. You can see that the bullet sticks out a little more than originally designed due to the solid head case not able to hold as much Black powder. Also, I didn't want to compress the load too much or the case would distort
And not chamber. The main thing is that it does chamber! So I'll load the rest tomorrow and post results.
You can also see from an original UMC box that the original Lead bullet in a balloon head Case load also stuck out.

Murph
 

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Loaded and ready!

Well,
The Troops are squared up and ready for the range.( Photo 1)

I will try to make it to the range next week but I have several projects going so it might be a little longer.
Plus, I received another mold in the mail. (See Last photo)

This Ideal mold is an " Error" mold that was sold cheap back in the day. Usually it's a machining error but in this case the Bullet cavity was modified from a 2 lube gas check skirt to a 2 lube Heeled skirt which is perfect for my other Target New Model in 38/44.

So this weekend I'm going to make time to load up probably 50 rounds for my 38/44. That way I can shoot them both at the same time.

I don't like going to the range on the weekends anymore. It gets old very quickly for me getting hit in the head And face with a hot shell from the guy next table over blasting away with his 40 cal semi-auto. Doesn't help my accuracy much either. So I'll wait til a mid-week opportunity and enjoy myself.

Murph
 

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38-44 Target is ready for the range

Made time today to finish loading 50 rounds for the 38-44 that I'm also bringing to the range with my 32-44 so I can get more done. I'll probably bring a 38 special M&P with me also since they are tremendous fun to shoot.

I used .357 magnum shells and loaded them with a compressed load of 22 grains of FFFG black powder. (Photo 1). Also used the bullet I posted earlier. Should perform well. We shall see.

I also took a closer look at the cylinder chamber and was surprised to see a "case stop" at the very end of the chamber. Photo 2. My 38-44 is the rarest variation having the long frame and long cylinder( listed as less than 400 manufactured) but they never changed the cartridge from the earlier short frame, short cylinder. I was thinking about that when I was reloading and without the case stop? The accuracy would suffer.

So when I looked closer I could actually see that Smith & Wesson did machine a small throat at the very end of the chamber. Amazing. They don't miss much do they?

I'll post range results some time next week. I'm full up right now.


Murph
 

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Made time today to finish loading 50 rounds for the 38-44 that I'm also bringing to the range with my 32-44 so I can get more done. I'll probably bring a 38 special M&P with me also since they are tremendous fun to shoot.

I used .357 magnum shells and loaded them with a compressed load of 22 grains of FFFG black powder. (Photo 1). Also used the bullet I posted earlier. Should perform well. We shall see.

I also took a closer look at the cylinder chamber and was surprised to see a "case stop" at the very end of the chamber. Photo 2. My 38-44 is the rarest variation having the long frame and long cylinder( listed as less than 400 manufactured) but they never changed the cartridge from the earlier short frame, short cylinder. I was thinking about that when I was reloading and without the case stop? The accuracy would suffer.

So when I looked closer I could actually see that Smith & Wesson did machine a small throat at the very end of the chamber. Amazing. They don't miss much do they?

I'll post range results some time next week. I'm full up right now.


Murph

Chambering for the ".38 - 44" Cartridge...if the Cylinder is the longer-later one and has the 'step', or, if the Cylinder is the earlier shorter one with no 'step', there should be no effect on accuracy either way...assuming with the longer Cylinder, that the Bullet is sized to be a snug fit to the ID of the Step-end anyway.

It would have been a horrible faux pas if they had not done this with the longer Cylinder.
 
Murph,

I'm getting confused here. This thread started out (according to its title) discussing the 32-44 target round, but now it seems to have drifted over to 38-44. Just a suggestion, but maybe we should have a separate thread for the second cartridge to avoid further confusion. Just a suggestion, and I'm enjoying reading about both, but it's a little hard to keep both cartridges straight.

Your Friend the Frog
 
2 Target loads

Morning Charlie,
My fault. I just wanted to post results for both target loads at the range. Sort of a comparison between the two. I honestly expect the 32-44 Target to be the superior shooter from a grouping standpoint? But one never knows until it's proven. That's the concept. Sort of a caliber challenge?

Murph
 
Frogg,

I will let you in on a secret, the 38 is the bigger one. Don't tell anyone!

Kevin

True that, but when looking at loading data for two cartridges with such similar numerical designations (differing by one digit in the middle) the possibility of transposing information becomes concerning.

Call me a nervous Nellie if you will, but I'm active on a lot of shooting related boards and you would be amazed how misinformation can slip in.

Froggie
 
Loading data

I apologize Charlie,

When reloading though you have to be precise no matter what caliber you are loading or reloading.

When comparing loading data for the 32-44 as proven in this thread? It no way even resembles the 38-44 both in bullet weight, type, powder charge, or even case dimensions. Not even close to be honest. An error in loading would be a gross error that would not in any way involve what has been posted on this thread.

When loading or reloading it's always best practice to check and double check and then check again all your data and final results. I enjoy it myself but would never recommend it for anyone who is not confident of their procedures. It's not for everyone.

There are a lot of really good reloading books out there. We should all have several in our book collection. If not? This thread in NO WAY qualifies you for reloading! Read some good books first to thoroughly understand the process!

This thread is honestly designed for those who have Already performed a lot of loading and reloading successfully and basically have a lot of experience. Also to satisfy Curiosity regarding a Historical claim of extreme accuracy that at this point I am very skeptical about. 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards? With open sights from a pistol? Sounds like a yarn to me! That's like hitting a Silver dollar over and over again at 50 yards with a pistol " Off Hand"? Come on now?


Anyway, When reloading for calibers that are no longer available on the market today you must follow " Precisely" the loading data from original manuals and never alter that data. Even when others suggest doing so!

Manufacturing non original cases and basing our final product from loading data that is 130 years old That's way beyond the novice.

Only a lot of loading experience and understanding the dynamics provides the confidence in knowing that what you are doing is 100% safe!

Murph
 
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Olympic comparison

I just want to convey exactly why I am very skeptical of the 1 1/2" grouping historical claim?

If you look at official Olympic targets that are used today along with very Trick small caliber low recoil custom High Tech pistols? You can see from the 10 meter target? Photo 1
And the 50 meter target? Photo 2

If you can shoot 1 1/2 groups? You would be a Gold Metal winner at ANY event! WORLD CHAMPION!!!!

Murph
 

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Murph,

Are the scores or string measurements from the old champions available? That could tell you if the cartridge and pistol are up to the task.

Kevin
 
I would also like to apologize to Green Frog. When I saw the mention of the 38/44 my first thought took me to the 1930 Heavy Duty chambered for the, wait for it, 38/44 HD! An entirely different cartridge from either previously mentioned in this thread.

Kevin
 
the 38-44 bullet

I apologize Charlie,

When reloading though you have to be precise no matter what caliber you are loading or reloading.

When comparing loading data for the 32-44 as proven in this thread? It no way even resembles the 38-44 both in bullet weight, type, powder charge, or even case dimensions. Not even close to be honest. An error in loading would be a gross error that would not in any way involve what has been posted on this thread.

When loading or reloading it's always best practice to check and double check and then check again all your data and final results. I enjoy it myself but would never recommend it for anyone who is not confident of their procedures. It's not for everyone.

There are a lot of really good reloading books out there. We should all have several in our book collection. If not? This thread in NO WAY qualifies you for reloading! Read some good books first to thoroughly understand the process!

This thread is honestly designed for those who have Already performed a lot of loading and reloading successfully and basically have a lot of experience. Also to satisfy Curiosity regarding a Historical claim of extreme accuracy that at this point I am very skeptical about. 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards? With open sights from a pistol? Sounds like a yarn to me! That's like hitting a Silver dollar over and over again at 50 yards with a pistol " Off Hand"? Come on now?


Anyway, When reloading for calibers that are no longer available on the market today you must follow " Precisely" the loading data from original manuals and never alter that data. Even when others suggest doing so!

Manufacturing non original cases and basing our final product from loading data that is 130 years old That's way beyond the novice.

Only a lot of loading experience and understanding the dynamics provides the confidence in knowing that what you are doing is 100% safe!

Murph

The S&W 38-44 Target cartridge used the same bullet mold as the 38 S&W thus the bullet weight and diameter would be the same as the 38 S&W.

B. Mower
 
True that, but when looking at loading data for two cartridges with such similar numerical designations (differing by one digit in the middle) the possibility of transposing information becomes concerning.

Call me a nervous Nellie if you will, but I'm active on a lot of shooting related boards and you would be amazed how misinformation can slip in.

Froggie

Hi Froggie,

These are Black Powder Cartridges.

There is no need or use or reliance on 'Loading Data'.

One puts in "as much" Powder as will fit with good compression, for the Bullet of choice to be seated to the depth one wants, and that's it.

if one wants to record or write down how many Grains weight that is, great!

However, Cartidge Case type, it's actual internal volume, will effect how many Grains ( of what granulation ) of Black Powder it can hold, with good compression, and for the Bullet or Ball being used to seat where one wishes.

This is always arrived at empirically, ideally anyway...no matter what any published figures may be.

With either Cartridge, one can use a very small Powder Charge and a Ball seated deeply, or one can use medium charge, Ball or Bullet seated how-ever much less deeply, or, a full charge and a Ball seated as far out as possible, or a full charge with a Bullet, etc.

There is no possibility of any kind of problem transposing anything from the one Cartridge to the other.

What could one transpose?

Nothing...

One could never fit the full charge of Black Powder the .38 - 44 can hold, to the .32 - 44 Cartridge.

It is all self regulating in effect, and fail safe.

Other than to have 'good compression' of Powder, about the only other thing to mind, is to have no Air Gap between Powder and Projectile.

That's it!

Whole other world from the critical 'Loading Densities' of Bullseye or Unique or other fast burning 'Smokeless'.

Back Powder Cartridges have only one Loading density - "Good Compression and no Air Space".

Old Balloon Folded or ( original 'Solid' ) Head Cases hold more than 'modern' Solid Head Cases.

People get in to trouble with fast burning Smokeless Propellants when not observing Loading Density in context of Case Volume and Bullet Weight and Seating depth.

Old published figures for Bullseye Powder ( in Balloon Head Cases ), if one follows the old tables and is using modern Solid Head Cases, one will be way over pressure from what the Balloon Head Case would have been...since the volume of modern Cases is a lot smaller, and thence, one will have goofed up the Loading Density unto Over-Pressure charging, in not being hip to this.



Black Powder, none of that exists.
 
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Origin of claim?

Kevin,
I'm only familiar with the historical claim that I personally have read several times from different authors but I have no idea where this information originated. I suspect the source is from a shooting match.
However, that ERA was plagued with sensationalism and yarns that often originated from some Major Distributor using Market ploys to sell stock.

On the other hand? this seems to have a more historical reference to the shooting matches at Bisley. Finding those early references? I'm not sure where to even look.

There are drawings of Shot targets found next to the New Model 3 advertisements that I have seen but none of them show 1 1/2" groups. I posted one on another thread about a year ago.

I'm not saying it can't be done with a lot of practice and dialing in the load, bullet seating depth and lead to tin mix but to me personally? I was a member of a target shooting club a long time ago and tight groups with modern powders and modern primers with trick custom grips etc? At 25 yards? Absolutely! But 50 yards off hand? is a stretch in my mind. 3"-6" groups are more doable and that's with a lot of weekly practice!

Hitting a Silver Dollar consistently at 50 yards even with one of the New Olympic target guns would be difficult at best! You would be Mr. Gold Medal that's for sure!

I'm trying to have an open mind here and I will do my best at the range so we'll see.

Just to be clear though? I plan on starting at the 25 yard bench for both target guns and bench resting them using my favorite shooting glove. This test is to see if " The Guns" are up to the task. "Not me" off hand.
If they pattern tight at 25? I will continue to the 50 yard range and " Bench Rest" them again. If they shoot tight patterns at 50 yards bench rested? That means to me that it can be done!


Murph
 
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