357 ammo in 1973

[kthom]

The Super Vels were definitely on the scene at that time, but all my agency issued were the Remington or Winchester 158 grain semi wadcutters. The Winchester's were lubaloyed bullets, but both were so soft that barrel leading was a big problem. As time passed, we began to get some jacketed soft points that were a big improvement over the earlier stuff. The first hollow point I got issued was S&W branded JHP stuff in 158 grain. It was good and came to us toward the end of the 70's. Ammo wasn't bought back then because it was the best but was likely available from the low bidder!

 

[Mike6735]

Wasn't Norma running neck and neck with Super Vel at that time? They were both hot in both their product lines.

 

[rockquarry]

I think the advertised velocity of Norma was a little higher than Super Vel and the others. Norma definitely had the hottest (advertised) .38 Special load.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

 

[ParadiseRoad]

 

[WR Moore]

Ah, the Lubaloy. Designed & produced in the optimistic belief that a copper wash on a lead bullet that worked in .22 lr would work in a .357 at 3 times the pressures. I recall firing 6 and then checking the barrel for leading. Couldn't see the rifling.

I have to admit I never fired the metal piercing round, but the 158 gr SWC round was simply miserable. I don't believe I bought Winchester ammo for at least a decade after that, maybe more.

I think I've still got some 158 gr Remington JSPs from those days. Hot load.

Low bidder often still wins, but most agencies today specify the specifications (bullet weight and type), often the brand.

 

[medic15al]

Ah, the Lubaloy. Designed & produced in the optimistic belief that a copper wash on a lead bullet that worked in .22 lr would work in a .357 at 3 times the pressures.

I recall firing 6 and then checking the barrel for leading. Couldn't see the rifling.

Wee bit hot for that lead bullet wasn't it?

 

[armadillo]

I was on the job back in 1970. Another agency armed their agents with nickel plated M-19 2 1/2" revolvers and Super-Vel .357 110 gr. They had terrible results. They had many rounds seize in the chamber (so they could not eject the empties) - most of the agents wouldn't carry them. The guns performed perfectly with old 158 gr. ammo according to the gun savy agents that I spoke to.

The problem was solved when they got WW 125 gr. ammo.

 

[Bushytale]

In 1971 when I got my first Model 19-3 4 inch the best thing going was Remington .357 scalloped 158 grain JHPs. I remember K-mart had great prices on Remington green box ammo for .38 special and .357. The HTP ammo of today uses the same bullets in .357 and .38 special 125 and 158 JHP. The .357 158 grain is still a good performer. It was loaded hotter back then in both calibers.

I still have half a box of the .38 125 JHP that is hotter than later purchased +P.

 

[jframejoey]

Mike is right about the old Norma ammo. I had a handful of jacketed Norma soft point about 10 years ago I got from "an old timer". Man were they spicy even out of a med frame revolver. I wish I had kept a cylinder or two full for winter carry.

 

[crazyphil]

For as long as I can remember the debate has gone on about big and
slow vs light and fast. In the early 1970s the RII was being developed.
(Relative Incapacitation Index). It was all quite scientific with little
practical street evidence to back it up.
Then a few years later the Florida shoot out between the FBI and the
2 bad guys kinda brought at least the FBI back to thinking maybe big
and slow would be better again.
Over the years, I believe the most effective .357 load was/is the 125-Gr.
hollow point. Personally I like the Golden Saber.

 

[WR Moore]

In 1971 when I got my first Model 19-3 4 inch the best thing going was Remington .357 scalloped 158 grain JHPs. ....... The HTP ammo of today uses the same bullets in .357 and .38 special 125 and 158 JHP. The .357 158 grain is still a good performer. It was loaded hotter back then in both calibers.

The 158 gr SJHP (semi-jacketed hollow point) was designed for the .357 Magnum and only loaded in that caliber. The 125 gr bullet actually works in both .38 & .357. Although in .357 you likely aren't going to get the FBI's minimum 12 inches of penetration. Heavy clothing may delay expansion enough to do the trick.

I'm not entirely sure the SJHP was the original version of the bullet. But, it turns out the only ammo I've got left from them thar days is SJHP. The price tag shows $15.70 for 50. And, that does seem to have less enthusiasm than the first box I bought.

When I was issued a revolver we only used the Federal 125 gr full power load. After seeing what that load did over time to the guns, not to mention blast, flash and recoil; I decided to tone my own reloads down. The same bullets at ~1250 f/s work pretty much as well with a lot less fuss.

 

[H Richard]

I never shot factory ammo, but did shoot the Sierra 140 gr. JHP over an appropriate amount of 4227 or 296 and it was very accurate. The 140 Sierra is still one of my favorite bullets.

 

[medic15al]

This is great info!

I had a relative that came from a well to do family and he was a rural deputy in a sheriff's department in Alabama, so he had his choice on any sidearm he wanted. He carried a Blued 3 1/2 inch Model 27 on nice days and a 4 in Model 28 on wet weather days. He wanted to carry his Colt Commander but the sheriff wanted revolvers only. He later went to a model 24 (I think) in 44 Special around 1974. He said the ammo he carried in his 357 was good but seems the 44 special was a better stopper.

He never mentioned ammo preferences, tho.

 

[larryb7]

In 1973 we were issued Federal 158 grain JSP. A few years later we went to Federal & Winchester 125 grain JHP. Texas Dept. of Public Safety.

 

[federali]

A Long Learning Curve

As others have said, Super Vel started an ammo revolution. However, it took several decades for the ammo companies to get bullets to perform at pistol velocities.

Not to be overlooked, early high speed hollow point ammo had exposed lead at the tip. When used in autoloaders, often before we learned how to polish the feed ramp, the ammo would drag on the ramp and fail to chamber. Eventually, they figured out how to make hollow points without any exposed lead.

I believe that it was the first-generation ammo that caused so many stoppages during the "chopped-and-channeled" phase of gun history where gun smiths were lopping off an inch or two of barrel on otherwise perfectly good handguns, compromising reliability.

 

[LDM]

I recently unearthed a box of Speer Lawman ammo with 140 grain hollow points. I believe it's from the early 80's. They are a nasty looking pill. Speer no longer catalogs the ammo or the bullet.

 

[WR Moore]

A lot of the feed ramps in early semi-autos were designed for FMJRN. When hollowpoints that sorta kinda worked in revolvers were designed, there was an attempt to just transfer that design to semi-auto ammunition.

Sometimes that worked, sometimes it didn't. Some of the ammo companies tried to mimic a bullet profile similar to RN. The Remington 115 gr JHP (now the HTP version) in 9mm and the slightly later Federal bullet used in the 9BP load are examples. Federals first effort was a truncated cone and it wasn't entirely trouble free in feeding.

Took awhile for many of the gun companies to get on board and revise their feed ramps. S&W was way ahead of Colt on this, having done so (IIRC) in the 39-2.