357 load for old k frame 125gr

[PeteC]

I know a lot of the article didn't directly pertain to the topic but the bottom did. Since I have no way to edit out all but the topic section I posted it anyway. The information within is good even if not directly related. (IMO of course)

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great article, and thanks for posting it. All good information. Here is one that talks about the development of the L-frame, including the role of the cracked forcing cones, with pics...

The Smith & Wesson L-Frame Story – RevolverGuy.Com

 

[ruger 22]

I know I might be a bit off beat but I always considered the combat Magnum/Model 19 a 38 Special hot rod. The L and N frames are real 357's. Even Keith in his book 'Sixguns' mentioned that it was a fine gun but not the same as the larger frames models for full 357 loads. I fully understand this model's genesis but think it was a solution looking for a problem since we had and still have very good 38 Special guns and very good 357 Magnum guns.

 

[One Holer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't flame cutting of the top strap another big concern of shooting hot 125 grain .357 mag loads? That's what I recall reading a long time ago so have always reloaded with 158 gr bullets.

 

[Nevada Ed]

So, are you saying the bullet is what is cracking the forcing cone? I always assumed it was the hot gases and pressure of the gases expanding that was doing the damage? Or is it a combination of both?

Thanks,

Rosewood

It starts with the hot gases cutting into the steel and is finished with the bullet
when the metal is weak enough to fail.

Sort of like a Granite boulder with a 3" hole drilled into it
then filled with water and let to freeze.
The water will expand and crack the boulder.

 

[Forrest r]

I took this bbl off of a 586 that had 75,000+ hot loads put thru it since it's last rebuild.

The 586 bbl's typically last to the +/- 100,000 round count and then need set back and a new forcing cone cut. The timing also needs redone. That bbl pictured above has been redone 2 times already.

I pulled the bbl because it was shot out/loosing fps & accuracy. The non-drive side of the lands is still sharp/crisp. The forcing cone has erosion and the face has flame cutting where it's supposed to. Namely the 6 o-clock position.

Just wanted to put out there what flame cutting and forcing cone erosion look like.

 

[rosewood]

I took this bbl off of a 586 that had 75,000+ hot loads put thru it since it's last rebuild.

The 586 bbl's typically last to the +/- 100,000 round count and then need set back and a new forcing cone cut. The timing also needs redone. That bbl pictured above has been redone 2 times already.

I pulled the bbl because it was shot out/loosing fps & accuracy. The non-drive side of the lands is still sharp/crisp. The forcing cone has erosion and the face has flame cutting where it's supposed to. Namely the 6 o-clock position.

Just wanted to put out there what flame cutting and forcing cone erosion look like.

That information tells me that S&W fixed the K frame problem with the 586/686 series and the average joe (who likely will never shoot that many rounds in the same gun) will never have a forcing cone problem with one.

Rosewood

 

[scooter123]

Take a look at the 38 Special recipe's and take note of the powder charges for your specific powder choice. Then take a look at the powders charges for the 357 Magnum for your powder. Did you notice there is a gap between the 38 Special and the 357 Magnum? That "gap" is the light Magnum territory and where you should be loading for your model 19's. Personally I load my 125 grain loads for my 19-3 to just 950 fps. Yeah it's more of a 9mm load than a Magnum, so what, it works just fine and it's much gentler on my 19-3. BTW, I'll also note that these light weight bullets to require jacking the rear sight to it's maximum to get on center at 50 yards so in practical terms the 158 grain bullets are a better choice for these revolvers. However they are more expensive so I do understand why many choose the lighter bullets.

 

[bmcgilvray]

950 fps with a light 125 grain bullet is closer to being in a gap gap between .380 ACP and .38 Special and is tepid in the extreme.

 

[LostintheOzone]

My first gun purchase was a new 19 in 1975. I put some .38 through it, but predominantly 125gr 357. I was new to handguns and had no idea that it could be detrimental to over do full house loads. I learned. I had no idea of the differences between an N frame and a K frame. I had no thought of keeping a round count. In about a year that gun was loose as a goose and had what looked like the Grand Canyon at 6 o'clock of the forcing cone. That revolver was beautiful, accurate as hell and toast after I got done with it. Don't treat a K frame like you can an N frame.

I have two model 19's that are 95%. I don't shoot anything above 900 fps in those anymore. I bought a model 28 for that. The K frame was originally designed for 38 spl.

I think any load for 38 spl, even +P, would work in a .357 case. I use this AS load.

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

 

[PeteC]

There is lots of discussion about 125gr v. 158 gr on the firing line forums. This is one thread:

Which is easier on my guns? .357 Mag 125 grain or 158 grain? [Archive] - The Firing Line Forums

The consensus seems to be that the 125 gr ammo causes more wear in general (shorter bullet leaving the case earlier among other things), but actual failures only occur in some circumstances and some, definitely not all, guns.

From the article I posted above...

S&W made the flat spot on the forcing cone bigger around 1975, which reduced the hoop strength of the barrel at that point even more, and led to the cracks (premature failure), regardless of wear over time. Not the same kind of failure as would be caused by ignoring the forcing cone erosion due to flame cutting.

Excerpts from article about the development of the L-frame:

When the gas ring moved back to the cylinder with the 19-4 / 66-1 engineering change, Smith & Wesson did not return to the less aggressive cut on the barrel flat that pre-dated the yoke-mounted guns. Although it was no longer necessary to make extra room for the yoke-mounted gas ring, they continued to remove an excess of material from the 6 O'Clock position of the barrel extension. To explain, we can only presume that a certain amount of institutional inertia existed, and the company wasn't nimble enough to abandon the recent production change and return to the old method, which left more material in place on the barrel flat.
It was about this time that S&W began to receive numerous complaints of cracked barrels in the 6 O'Clock area, and a number of warranty returns for the same.

This S&W Model 66 not only suffered a cracked barrel, but also a cracked frame. (Image from WaGuns.org - View topic - Cracked revolver frame- fixable?)

[Dick] Baker indicated that his first awareness of this barrel cracking problem was circa-1979 (about 3 years after the barrel flats grew larger), when S&W was conducting some endurance testing of the Model 66, using .357 Magnum ammunition. One of the test technicians encountered the "sticky yoke" condition on two of the test guns (unfortunately, Baker did not indicate how far into the test this was, or how many guns were in the test), and upon examination, they were found to have cracked barrels at 6 O'Clock. After becoming aware of this issue in the Stainless Combat Magnum, Baker stated that he went to the Outside Repair Department at S&W, and, "inquired if they had ever seen cracked barrels in the (blued Model 19) K-Frames, and they said they had," suggesting that the problem was linked to "hot handloads."

It is a long article, but worth a read:
The Smith & Wesson L-Frame Story – RevolverGuy.Com

 

[CorvZ061]

6.5 gr CFE Pistol under the 125gr bullet brought the best accuracy at 20yds off hand. Ran over the chrono averaging 1250. I'm going to load more of these. No flash to be seen at the indoor range and recoil impulse felt very tame. I feel like this will be a good plinking load to finish up the 125's I have. I did order some 158's the other day so those should be here soon as well.

 

[stansdds]

6.5 gr CFE Pistol under the 125gr bullet brought the best accuracy at 20yds off hand. Ran over the chrono averaging 1250. I'm going to load more of these. No flash to be seen at the indoor range and recoil impulse felt very tame. I feel like this will be a good plinking load to finish up the 125's I have. I did order some 158's the other day so those should be here soon as well.

Sounds like you created a usable defensive load. 1250 fps with a 125 grain bullet is 200 fps slower than the classic full power 125 grain load. I always found the full power loads to be pretty stout in terms of recoil, flash, and report.

 

[rosewood]

6.5 gr CFE Pistol under the 125gr bullet brought the best accuracy at 20yds off hand. Ran over the chrono averaging 1250. I'm going to load more of these. No flash to be seen at the indoor range and recoil impulse felt very tame. I feel like this will be a good plinking load to finish up the 125's I have. I did order some 158's the other day so those should be here soon as well.

Win, win. You will have less muzzle blast and flash with that load over a full power load with h110 and plenty of power for self defense, as well as faster followup.

 

[38SPL HV]

If you want to run 125 gr JHPs, I suggest 38 Spl +P loads (in 38 Spl cases). Use Speer on line 38 Spl +P data using Power Pistol. You can duplicate the proven Rem 125 gr SJHP 38 Spl +P round very nicely. They're fun to shoot and have ample power.

Use 125 gr 357 Magnums in a Ruger. Be kind to your classic S&W Mod 19.

 

[CorvZ061]

Solved the issue today. Found a 3" 686 Plus deluxe to retire one of my 19's from carry. So the 125's can be loaded and shot at normal magnum velocities. Only the 158's will be shot from both of my 19-3's