.357 Magnum 125 grain bullets and Blue Dot....

[canoe on the yukon]

I have never used Bluedot for the simple reason that it's reputed to be sensitive to cold temps and that keeps me away from it.

That being said,it appears to me that there is an ongoing trend to blame the product first and never question the user.When something is mis-used,it's the fault of the user.This redundant statement seems to be missed.

When reading the links provided by Alk8944,one thing was abundantely clear.The underloads and so forth that were being referred to were ridiculous. The loading procedures,charge weights,powders,etc,etc were all very inapropriate.It matters none at all that these were loaded by grown men who profess to know what they're.

It reminds me of the old joke about the man who threw away his typewriter because it didn't spell worth a damn.

Some of the loads,procedures,etc that I saw in these links were absurd.If someone only uses half the amount of powder needed ,what result should be expected?

To be as kindly as possible,some people should NOT reload....PERIOD.

If I use an inapropriate powder,what should I expect?If I use a greatly exagerated reduction in powder,what should I expect?To me,this is pretty simple.

At what point do we simply blame the stupidity of those who will not follow instructions along with some common sense?

To take a brief glance back at the 296 issue,Several manuals (Hornady and Sierra)for example give data for loads that are WAY BELOW the 3% reduction limit suggested by Hodgdon.Are they worrying?

Quite often,a company realizes that many of it's customers are actually idiots and they will go to extremes to protect the idiot from himself.

 

[Paul5388]

Caliber of tested cartridge was .243 Winchester, bullet weight 80 grains, powder then-new NORMA MRP, and the charge... surprisingly... just 15 % less than a maximum (compressed !) load. It was STILL A REDUCED CHARGE DETONATION; not one caused by an excessive charge, because the charge could not be excessive with those components in use. Light bullet and slowly burning powder is not an advisable combination of loading components for .243 Win., known as a caliber prone to S.E. Effect. (It's "big brother" .308 and "kid brother" .22-250 are considerably less risky; last mentioned presumably because of more steep 25 degrees shoulder angle).

Needless to say: All the loading components were examined carefully afterwards. They were faultless. Just the burning rate of powder was selected wrongly for the bullet weight. MRP powder is O.K. for .243 Win., but for the heaviest bullets of this caliber; weight 100 or 105 grains. For the most usual 90 grainer bullets is some more fast-burning propellant advisable.

Noted was a slightly less than a tenth of second lasting delay between hit of a striker and explosion. This same delay is noted also by survivors of S.E.E. accidents, if they can remember something from the "big bang". (Usual recollection is: "I squeezed the trigger and woke up in the hospital"). If the delay lasts a second or more, it is just an usual hang-fire, without signs of excessive pressure.
<snip>
P.S. That story about two broken .243 Win. test-barrels and purposeful courting of S.E.E. in Germany is told in the book "Handbuch für den Wiederlader" by K.D.MEYER, who was then a director of German DEVA Institute.

I've never heard of SEE in a handgun. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but it's highly unlikely.

One of the moderators on another forum shot some factory .357 Mag loads that clocked less than 1100 fps and I believe the bullet was less than 158 gr. That's hardly what I call a .357 Mag load, but that's what the manufacturer sells for that application and it's for self defense! Manufacturers have some strange ideas on a lot of subjects.

I have about 8 pounds of Blue Dot on hand. I rarely load it in handgun cartridges, but if I want to, I will. One reason is, it rarely gets down to 20 degrees around here. Another reason is, Alliant has no idea what gun I'm shooting, or its condition. I mostly use 2 N frames, a Dan Wesson and 2 rifles, all in .357 Mag. The rifles will clock 2200 fps with 125 gr bullets, but I don't use Blue Dot to do that. The 6" N frame will clock 1600+ fps with a 125 gr bullet, but not with Blue Dot.

The book recommended 14.5 gr of Blue Dot with a 125 gr bullet is, in my experience (1/23/04), a 1.5 gr overload and it has been that way too long. In fact, it was as late as 2004 & 2005 that Alliant published that load in their reloading guide. Then in 2008, they list only 16.0 gr of Blue Dot with a 110 gr bullet and 11.5 gr with a 140 gr bullet. It took them 33 years, give or take a little, to correct an overload problem that should have been apparent long ago. The only problem is, they didn't correct anything, but instead, they ignored it, so maybe it'll go away. A warning isn't a solution, reducing the loads is the solution.

 

[Steve C]

I've loaded 13.8grs of Blue Dot behind a 125gr JHP bullet in the .357 mag for years as a factory equivalent full power load that chrono's from my 4" revolvers at around 1,450 fps.

I talked to the Alliant rep at the NRA convention regarding their warning. His response to me was that they noticed the problem with recent lots of Blue Dot and they where trying to figure out what has changed. He said if I hadn't had any problems and I was using an older lot of powder then don't worry about it.

 

[MrPhil]

H110's purported tendency to "detonate" when down loaded has always seemed fishy to me. It's tendency to incomplety burn, thereby obstructing the barrel, makes a lot of sense. I use H110 for magnum loads only.

As far as Blue Dot goes, I used it for 125 gr 357 loads several years ago. Speer number 11 max load is 16.3 grains. Muzzle blast and flash were impressive, to say the least. Flame cutting to my 686 was pretty severe. I'm glad I shot only a few. I was new to reloading at the time and realized I needed to do more research before approaching maximum loads. At the time I felt lucky to have suffered no more damage than flame cutting.

Not sure where I was going with this.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Other powders do the same thing!

OK, don't ask me how I know this!

I was going to see if I could download AA#5 to AA#2 velocity levels. The cartridge was the 38spl. After firing one shot at those reduced levels, I had a squib stuck in my barrel. I cleared it and shot another with the same results, pulled the rest.

All powders have a range of effectiveness. The lower levels are part of a recipe as well as the top ones, period.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

I highly suspect that most of the catastrophic events that I hear about can be directly traced to the reloader rather than the powder.Some of the examples of powder misuse are extreme and is a reminder that not everyone should be a reloader.

It's amusing to me that someone will pop up on occasion and point to an idiotic misuse and then use that as the basis for an indictment against the powder.

 

[Paul5388]

On 1/23/04 I was doing a comparison between several powders using the same components. It was 73 degrees F that day, even though it was in January.

I checked the chronograph with Federal Match .22 LR that has the velocity printed on the box. The results I got were consistent with what was printed.

With 13.0 gr of Blue Dot in R-P .357 Brass with a 125 gr Golden Saber and CCI 400 (small rifle) in a 6" Ruger Security Six, I clocked the following:
1. 1430
2. 1421
3. 1438
4. 1403
5. 1403
The average MV (not instrumental) was 1458 fps.

Using the same components, except 14.5 gr of Blue Dot, I clocked the following:
1. 1500
2. 1500
3. 1462
4. 1410
5. 1422
The average MV was 1497 fps.

The 14.5 gr loaded had to be bumped out of the cylinder and it only produced 39 fps more velocity than 1.5 gr less powder. That's a pretty good indication 14.5 gr is an overload, even with a lot of powder that wasn't as new as what they say they're having problems with.

As a comparison, still using the same components, I also clocked 1500 fps MV with 10.0 gr of 800X and 1624 fps MV with 14.0 gr of SR 4756. However, the Blue Dot load was the only one that had to be bumped out of the cylinder.

I really don't see a problem with the 13.0 gr load, if 1450 fps is all you want with a 125 gr bullet. After all, that's about 400+ fps faster than those factory loads I wrote about earlier.

 

[fiveinch27]

I used 14.0 grains of Blue Dot under the Lyman #410610 for years, and never had a problem. I was getting about 1225 fps with that combination and accuracy was fine.

I don't have any idea why Blue Dot would be any more dangerous in one straight-walled revolver case than another, and it makes no sense to me at all. On the other hand, it also makes no sense to me that a powder manufacturer would discourage use of its product unnecessarily.

I don't have the answers, but I do have a jug of Blue Dot that will sit on the shelf until this thing clears up. There are other powders that work just as well---if not better---in my .41 Mag. That would be the one I wish to retain its structural integrity!

 

[oldRoger]

"I don't have any idea why Blue Dot would be any more dangerous in one straight-walled revolver case than another, and it makes no sense to me at all. On the other hand, it also makes no sense to me that a powder manufacturer would discourage use of its product unnecessarily.

I don't have the answers, but I do have a jug of Blue Dot that will sit on the shelf until this thing clears up. There are other powders that work just as well---if not better---in my .41 Mag. That would be the one I wish to retain its structural integrity! "
+1---------- I have not use Blue Dot in years and have none on the shelf. I was going to get a pound in my pursuit of a 200 grain lead 10mm load, but why should I? It may be that they have hired a new bunch of lawyers, it may be that the .41 mag, is not worth testing because of usage, I neither know or care.
There are many powders available which will yield the same or better results many of which probably are on my shelf.
I do know that the likely problem is not detonation but a stuck bullet or extreme gas cutting. I believe this condemned the .357 maximum. It seems that the bullet moves so fast that an extreme pressure drop occurs which in effect extinguishes the fire, leaving the bullet in the barrel, but still cutting the strap. It's a nice theory anyway.
In my old age I just avoid this kind of problem..

 

[Model 15-4ever]

Back in my original days of handgun reloading about 30 years ago, I too used Blue Dot to make factory-equivalent 125 grain .357 Magnum loads. I loaded 14.5 grains under a Sierra 125 JHC, and used it as a carry load in my 4" Ruger Security Six. That load was a humdinger: ear-splitting bright muzzle blast, plenty recoil, and accurate. Carried in 85 F to 10 F. Never recall a problem. Velocity ran 1450 fps.

When I got a 4" Colt Trooper .357, I loaded 13.7 grains of Blue Dot with the 140 grain Speer JHP. That was another real blaster that did 1340 fps.

I liked both loads. Don't load .357 anymore, but given all the hoopla I wouldn't use Blue Dot if I did.

 

[Treeman]

We can't help but speculate and debate this to death because Alliant didn't publish sufficient information. I suspect(but don't know) that the .41 mag issue is that they don't trust their own data with new lots. Despite decades of 125 grain .357 and Blue Dot use I suspect that there may have always been a problem tied to burn rate and cylinder gap/forcing cone jump. Most of us are aware that the factory .357 has been gelded and S&W introduced the L frame due to premature wear of police K frames firing 125 grain .357s. it seems that hot 125 grain loads arethe biggest offenders when it comes to gas cutting of the top strap. My own hypothesis is that in some guns with rough forcing cones the normal pressure spike which occurs in revolvers during the cylinder/barrel transition can get completely out of hand with Blue dot. I also wonder if perhaps some of the huge cuts in published 4756 data might be due to such spiking.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
Treeman I think you are verrrry close to the problem...
I also used bluedot until I got 296 [ loaded hot in those days] used that pound up and got no more..
The pressure spike at the bc gap maybe the problem in all this,
along with the condition of saving brass [ aka don't crimp much-ides]
that handloaders do.
Keith said that the then new powers [smokeless] were hard to light
and needed a good crimp. We have people saying that they don't
crimp at all now!!!! The powder companies must take this into consideration when they publish data.
In PPC and now in SASS there has been a rash of kbooms
with light loads.
I think that what is happening is the primer is blowing the bullet
past the crimp and it stoppes at the bc gap and then the powder
starts to burn well- this makes the bullet a plug and we all knows
what happens next....
I will no longer load a round that is not crimped at least normal if
not heavy and I will not load a powder below starting.
If I need less I go to a smaller gun or a different powder[aka Trailboss]