357 Magnum effectiveness

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Cal44

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I had some thoughts I'd like to share and to start a discussion.

First, I'll say I'm not a ballistics expert, not a cop, haven't shot anyone, and a lot of what I've learned comes from the Internet.

That said, I am an engineer and as such took a lot of courses in physics, chemistry, materials science, and hydrodynamics.

I've read many times that hydro static shock only comes into play at rifle velocities and isn't a factor in handgun ammo.

But I wonder about that.

I've seen lots of Internet videos of various handgun rounds hitting soda bottles or milk bottes filled with water.

Typically, when a small caliber round like a 22, or 25, or 38 etc. hits a 2 liter soda bottle it makes a small entrance hole and then an exit hole.

The contents of the bottle spurts out in two streams out both holes.

If the round expands, the exit hole is larger as is the corresponding stream.

But somewhere north of 1100 fps or so, the results are significantly different.

Often a whole side of the bottle is split and torn.

I'm think what is happening is the bullet impacting the bottle and entering the soda (or water) is setting up a pressure shock wave in the fluid. And this shock wave, at higher velocities results in sufficient stress on the plastic walls of the bottle tear them wide open.

Slower moving rounds also would also set of a hydro static pressure wave, but not strong enough to split the thick plastic bottle.

Now the skin of a mammal (game animal or human) is sufficiently flexible that it won't tear then hit by a pressure shock wave. So the bad guy or deer are not split open.

But (and here I really am guessing as I have little biology training), I believe that a pressure shock wave going through the body can mess up internal organs. Perhaps not destroying them, but putting them in a temporary state of shock -- and perhaps even shut down briefly.

An analogy is what happens when someone hits you in the solar plexus -- and you find you can't breath for a few seconds.

I'm wondering if this might be a factor in why 357 Magnum, and other rounds that travel at 1200 fps or more seem so effective at stopping aggressive bad guy behavior.
 
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Cal...I agree with you but from what I observed in the 30 years I was in LE and studying gunfights since 1980, there is a combination of factors involved.

If 1200 fps caused as much HS as generally necessary, the 9mm would be be right up there with the .357. From what I have observed it is 1400+ fps impact velocity where HS effectiveness get much more reliable.

That said, caliber, sectional density, nose design and expansion qualities play a big factor.

The .357 Magnum works best on humans with a 125 gr. JHP. The SD of that bullet is .139. To equal it:
.40/ 155
.410/ 170
.429/ 180
.452/ 200

The .357 delivers 544 fps of energy most of which is delivered to the target if the HP does its job. For the others to put that general amount on target:

.40/ 1250
.41/ 1200
.429/ 1175
.452/1120

There are of course a bizillion things that can go wrong but for me those are the minimums if you want the same effectiveness as a .357..

...but of course my opinion is worth what you paid for it...

Bob
 
Sure, it's a factor. But you need to realize one thing that really is misleading if you are looking at the effect on things like bottles of water, blocks of clay or gelatin, etc., etc. It is simply this -- the human body is not a bottle or bag of water, neither is it a solid, homogenous object. Much of the inside of the human body is, in fact, empty space, and ALL of it is extremely inconsistent in terms of density.

So, will a faster-moving projectile render more damage? It probably will, but it won't come anywhere near the dramatic difference seen when shooting various test media with different loads, and the mechanisms that create the damage in the human body won't be same as those that damage the test media.
 
There's the other pathologist YouTube video where he says a 223 going through a small muscle like a bicep will basically act like an ice pick. OTOH, if the bullet hits something substantial enough to cause it to tumble or fragment the wounds are devastating. Case in point, a lawman shot himself (carry down low with the safety on please) and the 223 bullet trashed his lower leg. Very ugly x-ray.
 
Have you read the FBI research? They have come to the conclusion that the only reliable means of generating a one-stop-shot is a hit to the central nervous system (CNS), no matter what the caliber.

Hydrostatic shock may very well cause a mortal injury, but it may not immediately incapacitate the bad guy, which is the whole point of shooting him in the first place. The Miami FBI shootout is a classic example of this, where after receiving a shot that would have eventually proven fatal, the BG killed or wounded 8 agents before they stopped him with a CNS hit.
 
dr. mordo said:
Have you read the FBI research? They have come to the conclusion that the only reliable means of generating a one-stop-shot is a hit to the central nervous system (CNS), no matter what the caliber.

Hydrostatic shock may very well cause a mortal injury, but it may not immediately incapacitate the bad guy, which is the whole point of shooting him in the first place. The Miami FBI shootout is a classic example of this, where after receiving a shot that would have eventually proven fatal, the BG killed or wounded 8 agents before they stopped him with a CNS hit.
Click to expand...

Yes, but:

357 Magnum scores over 90% on immediate stops vs. significantly less for most other rounds.

I don't think that's because 90% of all hits with 357 magnum are CNS -- and people shooting other calibers miss more frequently.
 
I agree shot placement is what it is all about to immediately end a threat. Like was said unless the bullet causes an immediate shut down of nervous system or blood flow then you can almost expect shots possibly coming back at you.

Funny how gun fights in the movies end so quickly. A person gets gut shot and they die immediately? I seriously doubt that.

On the other hand the shock from getting shot could possibly end the threat just as quick due to the take flight natural instinct. I seldom hear a discussion about how hot a bullet must feel inside the body. It has to feel like a hot coal inside a person. I do believe unless a person is high on drugs that the burning sensation could take full control of their thinking real quick. We all know how hot a spent casing is right after being shot, well imagine how much hotter that bullet is.

IMO A 357 has a few drawbacks that make it not such a good round. 1. It can go right through a person. 2. The sound can cause immediate loss of hearing. 3. The recoil can make second shot accuracy very poor. 4. The felt sound pain to ears and also the recoil can cause mental shock to the shooter.
People say the shooter will probably not notice these things during a shooting but I bet your mind is very aware and that could possibly cause an impact on your reactions or train of thought.

I guess bottom line is first shot placement is what it is all about to end a deadly threat. People laugh at using a 22 but more people have been killed by it than probably any other caliber. The best caliber or gun is the one you can be most effective with.

Personally I don't carry a 357 handgun. To each his/her own what they feel is best for them.
 
Lot to take into account when you are looking at external and terminal ballistics. The first place to start is the initial energy of the bullet. Bigger and faster means more energy smaller and slower is obviously less.

From there it gets to be a total mess. Impact energy, bullet design and construction, velocity, impact medium, etc all has many, many variables that results in the terminal ballistics.

However, the simplest way to think about it is not in terms of initial bullet energy, but it’s the energy dissipated into the target and even more importantly when and where that energy is given up.

So let me explain a bit. From a simple standpoint, let’s start with a solid bullet that does not expand and made for deep penetration. The initial impact will deliver energy at basically a linear curve relating the decreasing velocity to energy dissipation as it travels through the medium. The exact opposite would be a hollow point match bullet. If it is used to shoot something they basically blow up and dissipate all their energy basically at once, generally in the first few inches more like a reverse expotential curve. Then there is the controlled expansion bullets. Stay together for a bit, then a huge energy dump because of a relatively high retained velocity with a large increase in the surface area (expansion of the bullet) results in more dissipation of energy to the target. Thus damaged tissue. Some what of a logarithmic type of cure.

Which becomes the next phase. So there is physical damage resulting from the perminant wound channel (From the bullet) then there is the temporary would channel that results from the pressure wave. Yes, higher velocity rounds do impart a much more devistating pressure wave that can go beyond the elastic limit of the tissue. That is why some soda bottles example you used split open and others dont. Both rounds do generate a pressure wave into the medium. Just the higher velocity round causes a more significant wave that surpasses the elastic limit of the plastic resulting in rupturing the bottle.

It is also true that different parts of the body react differently to this. Muscle, skin etc, expands and contracts with little effect from this. However other tissue, liver, brain etc.) don’t respond well from this type of expansion and tear more easily thus perminatly damaging the tissue. If the elastic limit of the tissue is exceeded the tissue will be perminantly damaged. Just ask anyone who has shot prairie dogs with high velocity rounds. Small target with a high pressure wave that pushes tissue past its elastic limit (even skin and muscle in this case) causes some pretty horrific results. Or if you have ever seen something shot with a 50. cal same thing happens.

This is what leads to all the misconceptions and reality of what is the best stopper, etc. There are so many variables that it becomes almost impossible to truly compare in real world scenarios.

The one shot stop with a handgun is all total BS unless like was posted above occurs a CNS hit. Otherwise it will take a while regardless of the energy delivered or organs hit. I’ve shot deer with a 375HH maginum through both legs, blew the heart in half and the thing ran for almost 60 yds. Can’t make a better shot, or deliver more energy to the target. Yet it still did not produce a one shot stop. Most defensive pistol rounds are proabbly ten times less energy than that. It’s even two to three times the energy of a 500S&W.

As was said earlier much of the response is also about mindset of the individual when hit as well. Some people regardless where they are hit or what they are hit with may stop. (This is mental though not physical) Others, can be hit many, many times and continue to fight.
 
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Bob Thorton said:
Hey Cal,

It's more 'psychological' than anything else. Which adds to the shock value and shock can kill you.

Case in point a few years back out my way. Druggie was hit 4x with .40S&W and survived and not in a wheelchair either. Some think it was the drugs he was on that kept the shock at bay. However 2 years ago he didn't survive when another druggie shot him point blank in the head with a .45 a.c.p. :)

But in between all of that a kid out my way got shot in the leg and died at the hospital. And they got him there in plenty of time. So, my guess is shock took over and killed him.

Shock is a funny thing it can kill you but also save you.
Because it can force you into making lite of the senroisness of it all until you can get help, this is why they'll keep you talking and even trying to get you to laugh.

Worst thing you can do is freak out or act in front of them like it's bad. My guess is that kid went totally freak out and perhaps the paramedics offered no humor or something but instead acted to serious, "hello rampart we have young male incoming 30 over 20 pulse blah, blah. blah"

You know what I'm saying.
Click to expand...

No, I don't know or understand what you're saying, can you help me out?

I'm a 34 year career Paramedic and didn't understand what "offered no humor or something but instead acted to serious" means, perhaps you can help me understand, and then I could help you understand.
 
Here's a little advice from a couple of guys with pretty good credibility.
Not a lot of science, but considerable experience.

"Aim for the belt buckle. If you hit anywhere in that area, it'll take him down." Jelly Bryce

"I hope you never have to shoot any man, but if you do, shoot him in the
guts, near the navel. You may not get a fatal shot, but he will get a shock
that will paralyze his brain and arm so much that the fight is all over."
Wild Bill Hickock
 
Just my opinion. Getting shot with any caliber should take someone down or slow them enough to place a fatal shot.
Unless their on some kind of super drug.
I carry a plain old .38 sp. j frame .
They've done their job since 1898.
 
I won't discount temp cavitation, but it is really more about the bullet than vel in handguns. A rnfmj going 1200fps is a high speed ice pick, clean puncture wound unless bone is struck or the bullet tumbles. A jhp, even at 900fps crushes tissue & pushes fluids in front of it to create temp cavs. The problem is the temp cav is strechable & rarely causes tearing at that low vel. Above 1500fps, jhp, yes I think temp cav assist wounding & tissue destruction, but the bullet still needs to go deep enough. Above 2000fps with softs, things start getting really interesting.
 
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kenv1950 said:
Just my opinion. Getting shot with any caliber should take someone down or slow them enough to place a fatal shot.
Unless their on some kind of super drug.
I carry a plain old .38 sp. j frame .
They've done their job since 1898.
Click to expand...

Problem this has been proven incorrect 100s of times with every handgun caliber & most rifle calibers. If you hunt, you see this all the time with expanding bullets traveling 3x faster than most pistol. No drugs, just adrenaline. Why a 5shot anything is a bug for me.
 
The title of this thread is "357 Magnum effectiveness". I have a little bit of experience in this area.

The .357 magnum cartridge, when fired in common defensive handguns (barrel length 4" or less, handgun weight of 2 lbs. or less) creates an enormous amount of muzzle blast, muzzle flash, and recoil. Only the most highly trained and experienced handgun shooters will be able to compensate for any of that; second round shots are unlikely to be even remotely accurate; and the supposedly devastating effect of a hit on a human target is highly over-rated. Unless you are willing to commit nearly constant, probably daily, training time with your defensive handgun, the use of magnum ammunition is probably irresponsible (in my humble opinion).

As a cop I have seen a man shot with .357 magnum 125JHP at a range of about 20 to 25 feet. The bullet entered the shoulder area, striking the scapula bone, exiting the body at a downward angle, striking a concrete curb, proceeding across a front yard, passing through a 2X4 porch rail, passing through the exterior wall of a frame house, passing through an interior wall of the house, and lodging in a third wall within a couple of feet from a sleeping baby.

Granted, the incident described is only one isolated incident, not empirical evidence by any means. However, I have also served in military combat and seen the effects of rifle, machinegun, pistol, and shotgun use on human targets. I have never seen a single incident in which one shot resulted in instant incapacitation. I have seen numerous incidents in which people wounded by small arms fire continued the fight for significant periods of time before succumbing to their wounds (as well as a couple of incidents in which people didn't even realize they had been wounded until after the action was over and done with).

Relying upon high velocity ammo, or hollow-point expanding ammo, or anything else is wishful thinking. The only thing that really counts is shot placement. Shoot them through the lips to take out the brain stem, shoot them through the heart or aorta and shut down the circulatory system with fast unconsciousness due to rapid blood loss, shoot them through the lungs to cause massive internal bleeding resulting in respiratory failure, keep shooting them until they stop exhibiting any hostile intentions (and then keep them covered just in case they might recover a bit and try to re-start the fight).

About 1970 I was serving in Vietnam, my turn to clear out a bunker we discovered (all the stories about "tunnel rats" are BS in my experience, we all took turns). Shed my field gear, armed with a .45 pistol and flashlight, ready to enter the bunker entrance (after a frag grenade was thrown in), and about 20 yards away a NVA soldier popped up from an undetected entrance. As he brought his AK-47 to bear I popped off a couple of rounds with the .45. One shot hit his rifle, glancing off upward into his lower jaw, breaking the jawbone and taking out several teeth. Technically a one-shot stop, since he went down hard with no fight left in him, but he survived (good for me because we got points toward R&R slots for captured prisoners rather than corpses). He is probably still telling his grandchildren heroic stories of his service in defense of his country against the American invaders.

.357 magnum is a great cartridge for specific applications. Expanding bullet technology has evolved to a high degree. But shot placement remains the key to winning the fight, and that includes first shot, follow-up shots, and every shot until the fight is over and done with.

Now we can read all the reasons why I am wrong, according to the experts who have read 3 gun magazines and a couple of internet posts.
 
Shot placement is the key which brings up the point of which firearm/ caliber am I truly confident enough in my own abilities to use and stay focused and calm enough to get that good shot plavement. I have only been in one gunfight if me trying to get underneath an automobile while a druk guy running away with a 25 automatic shooting back in my general direction counts as a gunfight. You know how hard it is to draw a holstered 45 auto while trying to crawl under a car bottom line I couldn't . Went to carrying a jframe on my dads advice after that as I had shot many hundreds of rounds thru DA revolvers and could draw and fire without much thought due to that fact .if I had it all to do over I probabaly would be talking about how it's impossible to draw a J frame while crawling under a car but hey at least I am living to tell the tale e en if it don't sound very heroic. Bottom line if you throw a drunk guy out of a bar and he is screaming I'm gonna kill you go ahead and think well he might mean it .
 
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LoboGunLeather said:
About 1970 I was serving in Vietnam, my turn to clear out a bunker we discovered (all the stories about "tunnel rats" are BS in my experience, we all took turns). Shed my field gear, armed with a .45 pistol and flashlight, ready to enter the bunker entrance (after a frag grenade was thrown in), and about 20 yards away a NVA soldier popped up from an undetected entrance. As he brought his AK-47 to bear I popped off a couple of rounds with the .45. One shot hit his rifle, glancing off upward into his lower jaw, breaking the jawbone and taking out several teeth. Technically a one-shot stop, since he went down hard with no fight left in him, but he survived (good for me because we got points toward R&R slots for captured prisoners rather than corpses). He is probably still telling his grandchildren heroic stories of his service in defense of his country against the American invaders.
Click to expand...


His first words after coming to were probably “Who was that masked man.?” If he tells the story, it’s through dentures.

Glad you came out on top.

Given your experiences, what do you carry?
 
MY NON EXPERT OPINION.

Bob Thorton said:
What I'm saying is if the kid is freaking out perhaps help him to relax somewhat, it seems odd how a strong young kid dies from a leg wound.

I'm all ears Doc lay it on me. :)
Click to expand...

Throw all the studies/formula's/history out the window. Like rolling dice, each event is unique & what happened before has no bearing on what happened THIS TIME. Die from a leg wound??? Survive being shot in the head??? YOU BET. A severed femoral artery, blood clot, etc. etc. There is NO rhyme or reason & "impossible" things happen all the time. I certainly can't explain WHY "seemingly impossible" things happen, they just do.
 
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