.357 No good in snubbies? apparently all handgun rounds the same?

[nachogrande]

imo for real self defense ranges from pressed against a bg's body to say 15', throw the math books/chrony's and calculaters out the window. speed is not gonna matter much at that distance. a good bullet choice is most important as that is what's gonna really do the work. on target paper 2400 powder gives me good groups in most guns but is extremely loud with alot of flash in snubbies and I lean towards faster burning powders for shorter bbl's. for sd revolvers I like a 3" length 357 with some wt to it like the ruger sp 101, speed six or older s&w stainless guns. you can keep the air wt's in anything but non +p 38 specials. all this is a nice discussion in theory but up close, bullet selection and good placement will count way more than energy and velocity. my 2 cents.

 

[rod45acp]

Well, yes, it is a matter of opinion. There is no such thing as a "correct" or "absolute" answer to a question that, by it's very nature, requires a subjective and speculative answer. Someone above said it pretty well - when it comes to handgun rounds, NONE of them are truly ideal. There are so many unforeseeable variables that can come into play in any self-defense shooting, that the debatable differences between the higher-powered handgun calibers (9X19/.38SPL on up), is really a very minor issue in the overall scheme of things.

The KEY words in above text are "WHEN IT COMES TO HANDGUN ROUNDS NONE OF THEM ARE TRULY IDEAL".
Let's face it a handgun is designed for ease of carry, both concealed and open carry. As a LEO, I do not want to be walking round each day carrying a AR or some other rifle or shotgun.
The handgun is designed for CONVENIENCE. However as a trade off for convenience we lose power. Sure there are many books, Fackler, MacPherson and others who have 'proven' which handgun rounds are 'satisfactory' for a higher than statistical probability to be effective.
As well there will always be a need or someone who believes there is a need to go a step further, in the convenience/power trade off. Examplle .357mag through a snub nose revolver. Nothing is wrong with that for the person it works for, as long as that person likes it AND understands the trade offs that come with certain combinations.
With handgun loads, the efficient loads are listed all over the place, and from time to time these change. However what ever the HANDGUN load may be it is ALWAYS a compromise from the level of power given from a centrefire rifle.
There is a saying
'A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle, which you should never have left behind'.
9mm JHP .357 JHP and .45JHP rounds all mushroom (if they are going to) one difference is the .45 mushroom (all other things being equal) will mushroom larger, because it starts life as a larger round. Remember 12 to 14 inches penetration with as much permanent cavity damage as possible is what is required. AND shot placement is very critical.

 

[soggy bottom]

Have you ever seen a man on drugs.
He's like a "Timex" "Takes a licking and keeps on ticking"'
The advise on shooting what you shoot well, is good advise.
Shoot well enough to hit the brain.

 

[Hook686]

medxam wrote:

I carry a .44 Special and I am anxiously awaiting an answer to the question about a .44 Special round that will quickly expand. I do not reload, so is there a commercial round that does the job?

Heavy .44 Special Pistol and Handgun Ammo
Heavy .44 Special Ammo - 180 gr. J.H.P. (1,150 fps/M.E. 543 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=17


This shoots at upper .357 magnum energy levels, is already expanded to .429" from the start (greater than the .357 magnum even without additional expansion), and is available for those that do not reload.

I carry it in my S&W 329PD first 5 chambers. The 6th chamber has a .44 magnum, so I have not misunderstanding when it is time for a reload.
___________

 

[Vom Brunhaus K9]

Intereting thread with lotsa knowledgeable folks, I have in 357 a Model 19 2 & half in. 1972 vintage in Nickel and a 4 in. Highway Patrolman Blue with 4 inch barrel. My main interest is the body size target, and of course my HP is the WINNER as for direct hits. An old Cop friend of mine yrs ago showed me his Python and he called it a United Nations load which I still follow today in both my revolvers. I load a Blue Dot, Hornady Critical Defense, a Cor Bon, Armour Piercing, a 158 JSP, and one Hollow Point of my choice. So there you have it a United Nations Load, my 19 is a great gun, but for the recoil and accuracy My Highway Patrolman is my under the pillow gun.

 

[HaroldB]

I guess I've asked too many questions,

It seems I've asked something that comes down to opinions past the measurements...

What do you all think of the 44 special round for expansion and knonkdown power though?

I carry and compete using 44 special loads. Speer Gold Dot's huge 200 grn hollow-point is AWESOME. Hornady even has/had 165 grn HP load. Double Tap uses that Speer 200 grn in it's +P (for Ruger only) load.

 

[Jim-W]

Late getting into this discussion. There's always dialogue
of required FPS for expansion, knockdown power etc. and I
would like to offer my two cents. Yes My 21/2 inch Mod 66 is
loud, accurate, and 125 or 158 gr, will get the job done.

I grew up on a farm, shooting and handloading since I was 14.
In the past 6 years I have unfortunately, in this same location
come home late afternoon on two occasions to be shot at from behind.
Two forced break ins, and both men strung out on drugs.
Fortinuately both times I was armed.

240 gr .44 mag center mass, at about 30 feet, guy looked like he was
jerked backwards by cable hooked to a C-130. Ruined his day and my den.

380 from PPK to mid-face of the second one at 15 feet, stood there
then fell backwards, put another one center mass.
I was lucky, but think several times a week even now of the saying..."take your time but be quick".
Fortinuate to be able to keep my composure and able to
place my shots.
For most of my 63 years I have heard the 'kinetic energy, velocity, expansion' pros and cons, we all have discussed.
But at handgun velocity many bullets will, jacketed or lead,
-begin- to expand, and deliver available energy, but unless a
center mass or CNS system is disrupted, they guy is still coming at you.
Point is shot placement is as, or more important than retained energy, though that energy will no doubt slow someone down. Guess it boils down to theory vs real world.

I guess this is where practice enters the equasion.
The "7 yard distance" is accurate I think, but I have thought of this a lot also, -most of these guys breaking in, street encounters etc. are not familar with firearms, especially
handguns, and are not good shots.
Most of us on this forum are.

Sorry to get somewhat off topic, but may provide some insite. Like someome earlier said use what you are comfortable with and able to be accurate.
Just my opinion, and you know what they are worth.

 

[Smith4646]

44 Special are special!

Wow....So many good responses here and info, and funny. THis is why this forum is so great.

After reading the cronographed results of the 357mag in a snubbie, I think im comfortable with that, and will join the 357mag snubbie camp soon...

But...to clear 2 things up (im hard-headed):

THe modern 9mm +P now officially has a better knock down effect than a 45acp?

And lastly, I just bought a 44 special (S&W of course, thanks to a forum member!)
and was wondering about the expansion and knockdown power of the 44 special out of a 3 inch barrel?

My experiences with the 44 Special, while limited did create a bias in me. I flat love the accuracy and smooth shooting characteristics of the 44 Special. I worked with a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog and it proved to be very accurate and produced a very good thump on target. Do not remember the exact load that proved best but as usual it was a slowed down one that won the accuracy contest. Muzzle blast was there but not excessive and recoil wasn't bad at all but then I was much younger then (70's).

 

[Ed333]

FWIW, I simply do not like to shoot .357 mag in my model 60 snub, i question my ability to get successive shots off accurately, whereas with .38s, I am very accurate. Don't really care about my velocities.

 

[venomballistics]

THe modern 9mm +P now officially has a better knock down effect than a 45acp?

I will never buy into that theory without the use of explosives in the bullet
there is only so much you can do with the same copper jacket and lead core that has been the norm for over a century.
If a wizzbang 9 is compared to old WW1 hardball, Im sure the performance gap has narrowed some. to say it surpassed .... I think thats a load of mall ninja wishful thinking.
to further discredit the claim of 9 catching up with 45 .... every advance and gimmick the 9 lives on has also been applied to the 45 Therefore, anything fruitful has improved BOTH the gap remains

 

[PJS50]

WoW! There's some GREAT answers in here for you Lev.
I may be redundant to some degree here, but let me add:

"Generally" one can expect to lose @ 40-50FPS in velocity for every inch of a hangun barrel that they remove (not the same velocity figure for rifles BTW). Likewise, you can expect to gain about the same velocity by shooting the same load out of longer barrels...
So if you expect 1200FPS out of your .357 load w/ a 4" tube, figure you'd lose about 80-100FPS with the same load out of a 2" tube.... Is this enough to become "ineffective"? HECK NO! Even 1100FPS with a good/modern HP projo will tear the perp a new A-hole, no matter how you slice it.
Somebody above mentioned a 1000FPS threshold for a HP projo to open up effectively... I tend to agree with this but I would add that more velocity will usually make any HP projo design open up/perform better in a broad sense....
Somebody else mentioned that Velocity is more important to projo effectiveness than weight or diameter.. I also tend to agree with this for the most part, BUT an 1100FPS .45cal HP projo WILL tear the perp a bigger A-Hole than a .355 (9mm) or .38 cal HP projo at the same speed. But, for your original question, this may not be relevant...

In my own experience with my 340PD carry gun and a steel Detroit Bullet Trap that I have in my warehouse. While the trap will eat either .38+P 125g projos or .357Mag 125g projo easily, I actually HAVE slightly dented the trap with the .357 rounds (when shot at a less than perfect angle to what it was designed to take) whereas the .38's didn't make a dent at all... So YES, out of the same snubbie, the .357's ARE a bit better than the .38's (I never chronied either load so I can't quantify this exactly), but that doesn't mean anyone is going to be smiling if I whack them with the .38 +P's either!

Somebody else above made the most crucial response: IF YOU CAN'T HIT THE TARGET (center of mass) THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE PACKING A HOWITZER! Training is the key, no matter what caliber you decide is best, as along as the caliber you choose fits the above "general" perameters for projo effectiveness, energy, etc...

Also, you asked about the "knockdown effect" of some different handgun rounds. I hate to burst anyone's bubble here, but handguns, and even high-powered rifles, offer NO "knockdown" effect! Essentially, the only power a person will feel when they get hit with a projo (and only IF the projo doesn't go entirely through them), is about the same as the recoil impulse that you felt when you fired the round! P=MV no matter what way you slice it. THE most important factor in stopping a threat is hurting the perp as badly as possible, mainly by hitting the vitals and causing massive trauma/bleeding (heart, lungs, liver, etc...). IF your handgun round can't go through the clothing (winter wear DOES make a huge differnce in projo effectiveness!), ribs and muscle to hit any of the above organs, you are best served to get a more powerful caliber. In my opinion, the ideal defensive round expands well at the velocity that you can handle when firing it, and passes all the way through the perp, but exits the body at the slowest speed possible. If you can achieve this, you will cause the most trauma, and also provide 2 holes for the perp to bleed out of... This is why hole-size isn't necessarily as important as some would believe. If you can't hit the vitals, your going to be shooting more than one round, maybe MANY more... Thsi is why I consider .38+P, and 9mm, the bare "minimum" for any handgun I carry for serious defense...

I have a surgeon friend who works out of Flint, MI who told me this story: One early morning last winter (1-2am?), he had a BIG "biker dude" (@300lbs+) come into the hospital that got into a bar fight with 2 other guys. This biker-dude took 5 rounds of .380ACP to the chest in this fight! BUT, because he was so "big" and it was winter so he was layered up with t-shirts, sweat shirts, covered by his leather jacket, NONE of the 5 rounds made it any farther than his ribs! They literally did some superficial surgery to the guy, stitched him up, and he was sent home later on that afternoon. This is a perfect example of having an underpowered round for the situation...
Would a .357, even out of a snubbie, have been better than the .380 above? HECK YES!!!

 

[spad124]

I've shot .357s out of 2 1/2 inch snubbies, but follow up shots are a problem for me. So, I'm in the camp of use what you shoot well rather than any caliber or weapon based on tables.

I've found that for what i consider smaller handguns, I happen to shoot a 4" Model 10 with +Ps, and a Sig P6 well. They fit my hands well and my second shot is relatively quick and accurate.

Since I live in the only no CCW state, size isn't such a concern, the iron is around the house, not in my pocket. However, if I could carry I would probably carry the P6 or find an old Model 60. Point is, those are the gun/ammo combinations I shoot well.

 

[oldRoger]

As mentioned a couple of times there are designer ammunition companies who tailor make
Ammunition for those who want more than is available from the major manufacturers. The two that most match the questions here are:
https://www.buffalobore.com/
Doubletapammo Shop
Yes they can supply HD 44 spl ammunition. The majors load 44 spl lightly to avoid damage to some nice antique guns and some lightly built modern ones. Certainly the modern S&W 24, 624, & 696 are included in the modern category.
They can also supply .357 ammunition which is designed for short barrel use.

They can also supply 10mm loaded to the standard for which the S&W pistols (and revolvers) were developed; that is 200gr @1200fps.
I buy from both companies.

What they do is not more than what you or I can do given the time and facilities. I suggest anyone interested go to the reloading section of the forum and search for “The Load”.

Bullets sometimes do not expand, do not penetrate enough, do not follow a straight path after hitting, etc., etc. There are many discussions of the failings of handgun rounds on the web.
There is an excellent presentation (very long) by a Harvard Doctor about how to save gunshot “victims”. I look at this negatively; that is: how could the villain have been sent directly to the morgue. Most that he can save, shotgun hits included, are due to the lack of penetration. It matters little how big the hole if it is only an inch deep.
There is another presentation using computer generated graphics which shows how much the vital zone changes as a human moves and changes position and through the use of lines penetrating the graphic, the angle and direction you would need to hit the vital zone.

I don’t have links.

I can tell you that most of the studies of successful gunfire exchanges are skewed, again much discussion on the internet. The problem is there is no way to include all of the shots fired or determine in the case of a “stop” that the first shot did the damage. Further many are misreported or unreported.



I personally carry a 640 w/BB .357, 158gr or a 4040 with 180gr DT.

 

[jtcarm]

I've heard this argument before from .45 acp fans.
The .357 can go down to 2-3" bbl and still expand the lethal 125 jhp, just because it has much more velocity to begin with.
The 5" 1911 barely pushes most bullets fast enuff to expand. Take it down to 3.5" and it's really hurting.
There are likely better rounds now, like the aforementioned sig or .40 s&w. I still wouldn't want a shorty .357 shooting magnums as a defense round due to overpenetration and controllability.

 

[Bones454]

Check out the self defense forum on Glock talk (The G word ...Yikes!); it's hosted by Mas Ayoob and if you know his reputation (or if not read his bio) you can be sure he has the state of the art answers on most any subject firearm related. He addresses this exact question and the answer is ammo manufactures have developed new bullets and powder loads specifically for snubbies and what people generally argue are under powered calibers, such as 9mm, etc. Speer Gold Dot .38spcl. SB 124gr is a LEO proven round. His take is with the proper bullet/fps any chambering will penetrate and mushroom effectively. Of course a .357 will always hit harder than a 380, but several controllable ,well placed rounds from a "lesser" caliber may stop a BG quicker than a miss-placed round from a hand cannon when a person is trying to recover from the recoil and fireball from the first shot. I can tell you from personal experience shooting my "hiking" self-defense weapon , a Ruger 2 1/2" bbl. 454 Casull!

 

[nickn10]

I will just address your math. You are off by a factor of ten in both cases. Its 0.10 sq in for the .357 bullet, and 0.16 for the .452 bullet. Its pi r squared. Some folks say that pies are round, but we are talking math here!. You need to divide the diameter by 2, and square it. Then, times 3.14. But, the 45 still has 60% more cross sectional area.
As far as the tissue damage goes, that depends on the bullet profile. When Jim Cirillo, as recounted in his book "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights", talked to Medical Examiners after a shooting, he was told that, with round nose bullets, they could not tell the difference in wound channels between a .32 cal and a .45 cal bullet. This is because the nose of the bullet makes a small hole, and the tissue stretches around the rest of the bullet, and then snaps back. Hollow points with the cavity plugged have been reported to act the same way. That is why Officer Cirillo preferred the wad cutter profile. He even loaded one in the chamber of his partners .45 auto, something he says saved his owned life when his partner shot a perp. during a stake out. I guess I have addressed more than just the math. As far as bullet diameter goes, you do get a slightly greater chance of hitting something vital with a larger bullet. But, it depends on the increase in radius, which, of course, is half the diameter. For a .357 and .452 diameter, the difference in radius is .048 inch.
My own thinking is that the only reason that an accurate shot wouldn't be effective would be if it didn't penetrate deep enough. These are the necessities. Everything else is nice.

Rick

I stand corrected, that elusive decimal point fooled me again. The point I was trying to make was that the 45 bullet was 60% greater in frontal area than the 9mm/38 which I assumed meant more tissue damage.

 

[Old cop]

Someone posted earlier that a person shot in the hand w/a .45 acp took the arm off. I've heard this before and it is complete nonsense. During my 30 year LEO career I was involved in more than one on-duty shooting w/my issued .38 (+P FBI load) and the experience is not something I wish to repeat. These silly caliber wars will rage on forever but suffice it to say that adequate caliber (anything beyond .32) will get the job done w/proper shot placement. If you carry a .45 and believe hitting someone in the hand will take an arm off you're in trouble. Pick a gun you can handle w/quick follow-up shots w/i 7 yards and practice often.

 

[jframe]

Please don't tell me that the really nice 640-1 that I bought Friday night is a waste of money loaded with 158gr CCI Blazer Brass hollowpoints!!!

 

[semperfi71]

I can personally attest to the fact that a 200 grain .45 ACP round will not kill a skunk. Twice now.

Several years ago I shot a young skunk with my .45 and he refused to die. I had to get my .22 and finish him off with a head shot.

Several nights ago, from 6 feet away, my .45 ACP missed a large mature skunk entirely! He just looked at me after the miss, piddled around a bit, and then waddled away in the dark.

Next time I see a skunk I ain't taking no chance, I'm using my Shiloh Sharps in .45-70.

 

[Zebulon]

Late getting into this discussion. There's always dialogue
of required FPS for expansion, knockdown power etc. and I
would like to offer my two cents. Yes My 21/2 inch Mod 66 is
loud, accurate, and 125 or 158 gr, will get the job done.

I grew up on a farm, shooting and handloading since I was 14.
In the past 6 years I have unfortunately, in this same location
come home late afternoon on two occasions to be shot at from behind.
Two forced break ins, and both men strung out on drugs.
Fortinuately both times I was armed.

240 gr .44 mag center mass, at about 30 feet, guy looked like he was
jerked backwards by cable hooked to a C-130. Ruined his day and my den.

380 from PPK to mid-face of the second one at 15 feet, stood there
then fell backwards, put another one center mass.
I was lucky, but think several times a week even now of the saying..."take your time but be quick".
Fortinuate to be able to keep my composure and able to
place my shots.
For most of my 63 years I have heard the 'kinetic energy, velocity, expansion' pros and cons, we all have discussed.
But at handgun velocity many bullets will, jacketed or lead,
-begin- to expand, and deliver available energy, but unless a
center mass or CNS system is disrupted, they guy is still coming at you.
Point is shot placement is as, or more important than retained energy, though that energy will no doubt slow someone down. Guess it boils down to theory vs real world.

I guess this is where practice enters the equasion.
The "7 yard distance" is accurate I think, but I have thought of this a lot also, -most of these guys breaking in, street encounters etc. are not familar with firearms, especially
handguns, and are not good shots.
Most of us on this forum are.

Sorry to get somewhat off topic, but may provide some insite. Like someome earlier said use what you are comfortable with and able to be accurate.
Just my opinion, and you know what they are worth.

Solid Gold......Better late than never. Thankful you survived to share your experience with the rest of us.....Zebulon