.357mag 147grain loads with w231

[rfd]

currently loading 5.0 grains of w231 under a 125 grain precision hi-tek coated lead bullet. i've also got 147 grain hi-teks and looking for a w231 min/max load.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Please advise if you are inquiring about using those "147grain hi-teks" (9mm ?) bullets in a 357 Magnum application or in a 357 SIG application...?

The 1st is probably not advisable...

 

[rfd]

they're precision .358" hi-teks ...

38 147 FP - precisionbullets.com

... for loading in an S&W model 60.

 

[rockquarry]

I'm not familiar with Hi-Tek bullets, but you might look at Hodgdon data as a place to start. They list a variety of cast and jacketed bullets in your approximate weight range with 231 powder.

 

[rfd]

precision hi-teks are lead cast. i've checked online resources - hodgdon and others - nothing for a lead 146-148 and w231, and lyman's #49.

 

[OKFC05]

Well, here's your problem. You bought some SOFT swaged COWBOY ACTION bullets made to load to about 700 to 750fps.
38 147 FP
.38 Caliber (.358 diameter)
Cowboy Bullet
Must Use TAPER CRIMP die
Swaged with certified 6/2 lead alloy
Coated with our unique dry-lube formula

So your powder charge is limited to how fast you can go before you smear that soft bullet down the bore. If you are wanting to shoot Cowboy Action, GREAT! 3.5 gr 231 will send the bullet downrange. If you want to load to .357 speeds, sorry 'bout that.

 

[rfd]

yep, as i originally posted they're a cast lead alloy and slow poke loads are what i'm after and that confirms what i was extrapolating from some the load data i'd seen so far. thanx.

 

[Collo Rosso]

Hodgdon lists a 148 grain LHBWC with 3.5 grains of W231 at 869fps. It's a minimum load for 38spcl. You could do 4.0 grains in the 357 mag case with your bullet and back it down till it gets stuck in the barrel. Don't laugh, I've heard SASS guys talk about seeing their bullet in flight.

 

[rfd]

yeah, i saw that load on the hodgdon's reloading page, just thought that was a low charge as compared to their 125 grain listing with w231. i've heard back from some of the bullet makers who are using hi-tek coatings and they're saying no problem to reasonably up the powder charge and increase the fps as the hi-tek coating can take it. i'm using 5.0 of w231 for 125 grains, with zero leading or any issues at all, and i'm wondering if that same charge would work well with 147 grains. rather than the smith 60, i'd do the testing in a far more massive ruger 6.5" blackhawk and see how the primer and brass fares after firing.

 

[Collo Rosso]

I've loaded coated SWC's from MBC to full on magnum loads for 357mag and 44mag with no leading. Hi-tek coating works.

 

[muddocktor]

I've loaded coated SWC's from MBC to full on magnum loads for 357mag and 44mag with no leading. Hi-tek coating works.

But........... Unless you specifically ordered a softer (38 Special) bullet, the MBC bullets are 18 brinell hardness. The bullets they sell intended for 38 Special are 12 brinell hardness.

I don't know how much leeway the Hi Tek coating gives you with a softer lead compound bullet like he has bought.

 

[rfd]

i can't remember which outfit i spoke directly with - acme, BBI, or precision - but i was told no problem with their hi-tek coated soft lead alloy handgun bullets going as fast as the typical copper jacketed variety. ymmv.

 

[Nevada Ed]

You can't go too bad with a coated lead bullet for plinking and
also getting minimum barrel deposits.

I never pushed a lead bullet in my .357 Mag's unless it was my one, big game bullet.

I kept the lead at low easy to handle loads for all of us to enjoy
while killing rabid paper targets and tin cans.

Enjoy those bullets.

 

[Collo Rosso]

But........... Unless you specifically ordered a softer (38 Special) bullet, the MBC bullets are 18 brinell hardness. The bullets they sell intended for 38 Special are 12 brinell hardness.

I don't know how much leeway the Hi Tek coating gives you with a softer lead compound bullet like he has bought.

He did mention the softer alloy and I forgot. No idea how they'll hold up at higher FPS.

 

[mikld]

The bullets linked are designed for 9mm pistols. They can be loaded, if one has the experience/understanding of crimping. I would not load these bullets with mid to upper 357 Mag data, even with a crimp rolled into the side (breaking/cutting the coating). There are a few bullet manufacturers that offer coated, .358" revolver bullets, so I would suggest you put these semi-auto bullets on a shelf, and get some bullets with a crimp groove or cannalure.

I have fired Hi-Tek bullets in my 9mms up to 1,200 fps with out problems and coating, both PC and Hi-Tek, work much like a "softer" jacket, allowing higher velocities than nekkid lead...

 

[Nevada Ed]

As a note;
in post #3 the picture shows a smooth wall bullet design that is
a typical type bullet used for the 9mm. pistol.

They may work in low velocity 38 special loads..........
but any of the bullets that I load for my .357 Magnum loads, ALL
have a cannelure on them, so I don't run into problems.

You can use smooth walled bullets but they might jump.

 

[rfd]

what 9mm bullets??

these Precision Bullets (the company) .38 caliber, .358 sized, 125 and 147 grain lead alloy hi-teks are listed as "cowboy bullets", which, according to them and that designation means revolvers and lever action rifles. a taper crimp is specified. i've loaded and shot hundreds of these in a variety of brand/model revolvers from smith to ruger, no issues at all with the fired cases or the guns themselves.

38 147 FP - precisionbullets.com

 

[rfd]

SO .... Precision Bullets also sells the same hi-tek slicks in 9mm, 40 and 45, presumably for semi-autos, using a taper crimp, so therefore these would all be dangerous loads that could increase a cartridge OAL and create an unsafe load if not jam the gun. really?

 

[ol777gunnerz]

231

HP-38 & 231 powders are the same, HP-38 data is easier to find in older re-loading info.; I use the HP-38 data with good results in 38 spc & 357 mag. I only shoot the 357's in my Marlin CB rifle.

 

[rfd]

HP-38 & 231 powders are the same, HP-38 data is easier to find in older re-loading info.; I use the HP-38 data with good results in 38 spc & 357 mag. I only shoot the 357's in my Marlin CB rifle.

w231 and hp38 - i thought that was common knowledge and do the same with listed loads for either.

 

[rfd]

with regards to these no-groove bullet "slicks", 11.1 grains of A2400 under the taper crimped Precision 147 grain hi-tek worked fine at the police range last night in the Ruger 6.5" NMBH. no bullet jump, no leading and accuracy was good enuf for me @ 10 to 25 yards. life is still good.

 

[Nevada Ed]

11 gr of A2400 should be around 998fps at 17 CUP for a starting load
per my Lyman data........
but the bullet used did have a cannelure .

True, with good dies and case tension, good loads can be loaded for light target loads, with "Smooth bullets".

I have done it but I also have had problems when the loads got into the 1200fps area. Just a heads up.

If by chance you have some Trail Boss or Bullseye you might try
a few loads in a 38 snub nose, if you have one.
550fps worked well for me.

 

[rfd]

I'm far more of a BPCR PPB guy than handguns, and all i cast are 16:1 525 grain slicks for wrapping. well, either that or .600 or .530 lead balls for flintlock long guns.

I have, and have used both trail boss and BE, as well as unique. I think i'll stick with w231/125gr for the mild loads and A2400/147gr for the medium loads. The blackhawk's weight really helps and i have no problem with one-handing those stiffer loads.

I just loaded up some .38's with 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 grains of w231 under a 125 grain hi-tec slick for a soon-to-arrive smith 642c airweight. curious to see/feel the recoil with that 15oz peashooter.

 

[mikld]

One would be foolish to load those "cowboy" bullets in a tubular magazine rifle...

Perhaps the manufacture's advertising feller called them, mistakenly, "cowboy bullets" but anyone with any experience reloading for revolvers and pistols will see that they are designed for 9mm pistols...

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I'm far more of a BPCR PPB guy than handguns, and all i cast are 16:1 525 grain slicks for wrapping. well, either that or .600 or .530 lead balls for flintlock long guns.

I have, and have used both trail boss and BE, as well as unique. I think i'll stick with w231/125gr for the mild loads and A2400/147gr for the medium loads. The blackhawk's weight really helps and i have no problem with one-handing those stiffer loads.

I just loaded up some .38's with 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 grains of w231 under a 125 grain hi-tec slick for a soon-to-arrive smith 642c airweight. curious to see/feel the recoil with that 15oz peashooter.

4.5 gr of WIN231 would be within Hodgdon's range for either a 125gr LRNFP or a 158gr LCSWC.

I believe what people were warning you about was either creep or possible setback: "slick", smooth (coated) bullets with no cannalure can cause problems at "true" 357 Magnum (or 357 SIG!) velocities. Hence my initial question way back in this thread, BTW.

I have shot 1,000's of 125gr plated FP Xtremes at 38 Special and +P and in LOWER 357 Magnum velocities (1200 fps) using many different powders and a taper crimp (actually the LEE FCD) with no problems. They were my range choice for years.

I believe people were just trying to make you aware of the possible implications : "cowboy-style" bullets are not truly designed for the higher velocities. Speer makes a bonded, jacketed 135gr Gold Dot they use in their ammo designed for short barrels that might be the exact cup-o-tea for that Airweight you have coming?

Cheers!

 

[rfd]

I believe what people were warning you about was either creep or possible setback: "slick", smooth (coated) bullets with no cannalure can cause problems at "true" 357 Magnum (or 357 SIG!) velocities. Hence my initial question way back in this thread, BTW.

FWIW, I was cautious enuf to take calipers to last night's range session and after loading el pistolo with all six a2400 rounds, cartridge numero seis had no bullet setback after it's compadres all departed el cylindero. i fired off 20 of 'em and did the 6th round check on all. no issues with the fired brass/primers, no leading, accuracy was better than me.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Perhaps the manufacture's advertising feller called them, mistakenly, "cowboy bullets" but anyone with any experience reloading for revolvers and pistols will see that they are designed for 9mm pistols...

hmm, i'd suggest that before making assumptions you'd be best to have called Precision Bullets for their take on what they offer, and who's using 'em with no issues. they've made and sold millions of their hi-teks and either they'd be stupid for making/labelling a product incorrectly, or be out of business due to their negligence. as it was, i made the call yesterday afternoon, spoke with the owner/operator, and got the real scoop.

 

[mikld]

hmm, i'd suggest that before making assumptions you'd be best to have called Precision Bullets for their take on what they offer, and who's using 'em with no issues. they've made and sold millions of their hi-teks and either they'd be stupid for making/labelling a product incorrectly, or be out of business due to their negligence. as it was, i made the call yesterday afternoon, spoke with the owner/operator, and got the real scoop.

I started reloading revolver ammo in summer of '69. I have 7 revolvers that I reload for, jacketed, lead, PCed and Hi-Tek. I have purchased a few thousand "black bullets" from Precision, and I have never, nope never seen a revolver bullet sans crimp groove or cannalure. I would also hazard to say I don't remember ever seeing a bullet designed for a semi-auto that had a cannalure or crimp groove. If the bullet designer made up the ad copy stated the smooth sided, no groove/cannalure was designed for "cowboy" revolver shooting I might take that into consideration, but even "new and improved" bullet design is still the same old stuff; cannalure/crimp groove for revolver bullets, smooth sided, no groove bullets for semi-auto use.

But (un)fortunately I pay little attention to "forum wisdom" as anybody can post something, swear it's the true facts, and be just whistling Dixie. Yep I talked to Keith yesterday and he verified my findings...

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Uh, the 140gr hi-tech coated 10mm/40 S&W bullets from the Missouri Bullet Company are definitely for a semi-auto and have a cannelure/crimp groove...

They can't be the only ones?

Cheers!

 

[muddocktor]

My main problem with that bullet design is not whether it was originally designed for a semi auto or revolver, but rather the lack of a crimp groove. And even then, I wouldn't have a problem running them in a revolver except maybe one of the ultra light scandium guns because of crimp jump. But I would never run them in my Rossi carbine because of the lack of a crimp groove to physically lock the bullet to the case until ignition. There is just too much chance for recoil to push the bullet well into the case with the tubular mag spring already putting everything under load already.

@ STORMINORMAN, I have loaded quite a few of those MBC 140 grain Zingers and they perform real well and feed great in my Rossi. I've chronoed them at over 1900 ft/sec out of the Rossi with no signs of leading. But if you look at the Zinger, it has a definite crimp groove plus a lube groove, which is different from the Precision bullet the OP linked to.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Yep! & WOW!

My main problem with that bullet design is not whether it was originally designed for a semi auto or revolver, but rather the lack of a crimp groove. And even then, I wouldn't have a problem running them in a revolver except maybe one of the ultra light scandium guns because of crimp jump. But I would never run them in my Rossi carbine because of the lack of a crimp groove to physically lock the bullet to the case until ignition. There is just too much chance for recoil to push the bullet well into the case with the tubular mag spring already putting everything under load already.

@ STORMINORMAN, I have loaded quite a few of those MBC 140 grain Zingers and they perform real well and feed great in my Rossi. I've chronoed them at over 1900 ft/sec out of the Rossi with no signs of leading. But if you look at the Zinger, it has a definite crimp groove plus a lube groove, which is different from the Precision bullet the OP linked to.

I was unaware Rossi even made a long gun in 40 S&W! 1900 fps is nothing to sneeze at! I would have thought one of the Buffalo Bore (Standard Pressure) loads out of my Sub 2000 would be about as far as you could push a 40 S&W...?

Wow!