.38+P ammo is the same as pre 1972 ammo?

[Doug.38PR]

.38 Special - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overpressure ammunition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've heard it said on this and other gun forums by those who regularly handload and shoot a jillion +P rounds through their 1930whatever K frames that ".38+P is no big deal, it's not a hot load it's the same thing as .38 Special was years ago" before companies reduced the pressure for their cartridges while more conservative people in these gun forums say "That's not correct, .38 Special is the same now as it was 50 years ago and if the factory says it's a hot load or to not do it, then they might just know something you don't."
I've never seen this anywhere officially or in writing other than "I saw it on a gun forum" that .38+P is the same as standard was years ago. Well, now somebody on wikipedia is saying the same thing as seen in these two articles. Furthermore it is claimed that companies reduced their loads in 1972 and stamped +P on what was standard prior to 1972

I note the people on the wikipedia articles are not giving a source for their claim

 

[Goat Man]

Thanks Doug for bringing this up. I too have wondered the same thing for a long time. What is really the truth, and who is blowing smoke?

 

[Art Doc]

When I was young, the standard 38 Special load was a 158 grain bullet at about 850-900 FPS. I have chronographed numerous boxes of vintage ammo and confirmed this fact. The current standard 38 Special load with a 158 grain bullet clocks a pathetic 730 FPS. The standard load has been greatly reduced over the years.

The maximum allowable pressure for the 38 Special is 21,500 FPS. Factory +P is loaded to 18,500 PSI so it is in fact a mild load. It is not "over pressure" (as +P might suggest). It is not even loaded to full pressure. It is loaded BELOW pressure. The 730 FPS load is at 16,000 PSI, BTW.

The notion that +P is in any way a hot load is nothing but marketing hype. All that is needed is to look at the actual chamber pressure to see how mild it actually is.

 

[Doug.38PR]

I don't think anybody in here (or elsewhere) is "blowing smoke" on this question. I think both sides have valid reasons for what they say. The .38 Special has been around for like 100 years. it has a lot of history behind it.

 

[Harrison]

I suspect that 38 special and 38+P are being loaded to reduced pressures. After all, the ammo countries have to load ammo to be safe in the weakest/oldest/most wornout firearm that may be chambered for it. To do otherwise is to risk multi-million dollar lawsuits when some old clapped out rusted pistol blows from a factory load, and the shooter, or a bystander, are injured. Many calibers, both rifle and pistol are being loaded by the factories to reduced pressures. This is done reduce lawsuits. Blame the lawyers, the courts and our litigious society.

 

[Harrison]

typo: I meant ammo companies, not ammo countries.

 

[Doug.38PR]

When I was young, the standard 38 Special load was a 158 grain bullet at about 850-900 FPS. I have chronographed numerous boxes of vintage ammo and confirmed this fact. The current standard 38 Special load with a 158 grain bullet clocks a pathetic 730 FPS. The standard load has been greatly reduced over the years.

The maximum allowable pressure for the 38 Special is 21,500 FPS. Factory +P is loaded to 18,500 PSI so it is in fact a mild load. It is not "over pressure" (as +P might suggest). It is not even loaded to full pressure. It is loaded BELOW pressure. The 730 FPS load is at 16,000 PSI, BTW.

The notion that +P is in any way a hot load is nothing but marketing hype. All that is needed is to look at the actual chamber pressure to see how mild it actually is.

Saxon,
you have the equipment to measure preassure per square inch? If not,how did you calculate the PSI for each of these rounds?

 

[keithpip]

38 Special

I believe what Saxon is saying is correct. I'm old enough to remember the standard 38 special round from decades past. By this I mean the 1960's and '70s. This round used the ubiquitous 158 gr. lead round nose bullet and was carried in many a LEOS Colt or Smith & Wesson .38 duty revolver (including my dad's). Now when Super Vel came along it was a whole new ball game. I still have a partial box of 38 special Super Vel from the 1970's that my dad gave me. He told me that it was department policy that only police issue standard 38 specials could be loaded in the service revolver. What you put in your off-duty revolver was your own business. I remember dad putting the SV rounds in his Smith Chief Special Airweight. As far as I know he never fired any of these SV rounds out of his off-duty gun. Probably a good thing. I keep these old "+P" rounds in my collection and would never use them since they can't be replaced. I would invite comment on Super Vel versus todays +P 38 specials (not to hijack this thread though).

 

[Doug.38PR]

Over on the Colt forum (I won't post a link as I remember the mods and admin. around here don't like people posting links to other forums) I posted this same thread in the revolver section. There is a gentleman in there who claims to have worked for two ammo companies and insists ammo loads were not reduced. That +P simply means higher pressure which doesn't necessarily mean increased velocity. I believe he is under the impression that a lot of people confuse these "old" standard .38s that give you 900 ft per second with old Hi-Speed, etc. rounds. (which, from what Saxon Pig is saying, is incorrect as he has fired many such old rounds and is positive they are standard and not Hi-Speed)

 

[keith44spl]

I believe what Saxon is saying is correct. I'm old enough to remember the standard 38 special round from decades past. By this I mean the 1960's and '70s. This round used the ubiquitous 158 gr. lead round nose bullet and was carried in many a LEOS Colt or Smith & Wesson .38 duty revolver (including my dad's). Now when Super Vel came along it was a whole new ball game. I still have a partial box of 38 special Super Vel from the 1970's that my dad gave me. He told me that it was department policy that only police issue standard 38 specials could be loaded in the service revolver. What you put in your off-duty revolver was your own business. I remember dad putting the SV rounds in his Smith Chief Special Airweight. As far as I know he never fired any of these SV rounds out of his off-duty gun. Probably a good thing. I keep these old "+P" rounds in my collection and would never use them since they can't be replaced. I would invite comment on Super Vel versus todays +P 38 specials (not to hijack this thread though).

I shot a lot of the old Super-Vel ammo in both 38 spl & 357 Mag.

Now that thar is the real deal on the +P scale...Sur nuf make the ponies jump.

And let's not forget some of the 60s & 70s Norma loadings. Boy Howdy!


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Jack Flash]

... That +P simply means higher pressure which doesn't necessarily mean increased velocity. ...

More pressure for the same velocity? Is that even possible? If so, what would be the point?

 

[H Richard]

My old Lyman cast bullet loading manual (from the early 80's, not too old) list's the most accurate load with the lead RNFP as 4.9 gr. 231 for 906 fps. I load it and it is my most accurate load. It is not listed as a plus P, but at the top of the standard velocity loads.

 

[redlevel]

I remember dad putting the SV rounds in his Smith Chief Special Airweight. As far as I know he never fired any of these SV rounds out of his off-duty gun. Probably a good thing. .

I shot a lot of the old Super-Vel ammo in both 38 spl & 357 Mag.

Now that thar is the real deal on the +P scale...Sur nuf make the ponies jump.

Su Amigo,
Dave

I fired some of the original Super-Vel loads in my standard weight Chiefs Special in the early 70s. First cylinder full, after either the second or third shot, the next round up slipped the crimp and tied up the revolver. I think the box got thrown out, but I still have 10-15 rounds of the loads somewhere.

 

[roaddog28]

The only 38 +P round I would consider "hot today" is the Buffalo Bore 158gr +P LSWCHP round rated at 1100 fps. I don't know if this is out of a 4 inch revolver or what but I have used them in my S&W model 10 heavy barrel and believe this is not the standard +P round made by other ammo makers.
Howard

 

[woodsltc]

More pressure for the same velocity? Is that even possible? If so, what would be the point?

My thoughts exactly !!

Nothing to gain by adding pressure without a corresponding increase in velocity !! Just makes no sense.

 

[Art Doc]

Doug, the individual pressure figures are published by the manufacturers. The maximum figure is from SAAMI and is readily available. No need to do your own testing.

Higher pressure equals more velocity.

 

[Muley Gil]

In the early '70s, my Pappy bought an "S" serial numbered M&P. The salesman also sold him a box of Super Vel ammo, saying it was the best around.

Pappy shot 6 rounds, I shot 6 rounds, and my mom shot one round (# 13). The revolver jammed. An inspection showed that the forcing cone had split.

The shop sent the M&P back to Smith, who installed a new barrel. The Super Vel was swapped for a box of standard RNL ammo.

 

[30-30remchester]

DOUG38, interesting thread. I have often wondered about the 38 special. The one thing I have not been able to see in actual writing is the original SAMMI pressures of the pre 1972 ammo. I have heard it before but never actually seen it on a SAMMI information sheet. Do you know where I might be able to acsess this imformation?

 

[keith44spl]

I fired some of the original Super-Vel loads in my standard weight Chiefs Special in the early 70s. First cylinder full, after either the second or third shot, the next round up slipped the crimp and tied up the revolver. I think the box got thrown out, but I still have 10-15 rounds of the loads somewhere.

Yup,

That SV would jump the crimp in them lighter frame revolvers.

I had a old HD and of course a 27 to shoot that hot rod ammo in.

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[tops]

I have shot 158 gr. bul. with 12 grs. of 2400 out of several post war S&W "K" frames and Colt Police Postive and Official Police without any problems but I probably never shot over a box or two out of each gun. I believe there is a good reason that S&W made the 38/44. I have shot unknown how many thousands of them out of .357 guns and I don't think a regular "K" frame will stand up to a steady diet of them. Just my opinion and it is probably worth what you paid for it. Larry

 

[Art Doc]

Muley Gil- There must have been a defect in the barrel. Or there was a carbon "hot spot" in the cone. It does happen. One police armorer reported Model 19s splitting cones with target 38 Special ammo. It happens. Thousands of post war M&Ps were fed Super Vel without any problems.

 

[Doug.38PR]

More pressure for the same velocity? Is that even possible? If so, what would be the point?

Wondered the same thing myself as did somebody else in that forum

 

[Art Doc]

There is what is called a pressure curve. As pressure goes up so does velocity. However, it is a case of diminishing returns with the gain in velocity dropping off as the pressure increases rather than maintaining a constant ratio. Going from 16,000 PSI to 20,000 results in a greater velocity increase than does going from 20,000 PSI to 24,000 PSI. At some point you reach the practical level.

I was shooting a Ruger #1 in 243 Winchester and fired a round that had a 150% powder charge. The next one in the box (unloading in reverse order) was a 50% load so I figure the powder dispenser stuck and only delivered half the powder charge, then on the next case the half charge and a full one were dumped into the case.

I happened to be shooting over a chronograph at the time and recorded over 3,400 FPS. The load should produce about 2,600 FPS so in this case a 50% increase in powder resulted in only a 35% increase in velocity. It likely caused the chamber pressure to double. Fortunately the #1 is insanely strong and other than a stuck case requiring a steel rod down the barrel to remove there was no damage.

 

[Malysh]

Wondered the same thing myself as did somebody else in that forum

That was me.

 

[Jack Flash]

Pressure and velocity are related, but it is not a linear relationship. As SP noted, it is called a "pressure curve" since pressure increases exponentially compared to velocity.

At lower, ie safe, pressures, the pressure vs velocity graph can be approximated by a straight line. You do reach a point on the graph where pressure skyrockets with very minimal velocity gains. This is where things get dangerous.

 

[Malysh]

The gentleman on the Coltforum stated he worked for two ammo companies and part of what he said was " The +P designation is for higher pressure, NOT nessessarily higher velocities."

I then asked what's the reason, or sense to jack up the pressure if it does not increase the velocity? If a company is making +P loads that only increase the pressure but don't increase the velocity and therefore, don't increase the ft.lbs. of energy delivered to the target, or assailant, why even bother with it?

I am still waiting for an answer. I am not a skilled ballistician. I have no strong opinion pro or con, I just want to hear more about this from him.
If he doesn't revisit the thread I am going to send him a polite P.M. and ask him.

A friend here at home is pretty smart and has been reloading for over 20 years. His opinion, and mine, if there is really no appreciable increase in velocity, maybe it's just a marketing ploy or marketing stragtegy?
Maybe this isn't so but in a capitalistic society, if you have 10 companies selling laundry detergent, cars, over the counter pain relievers, etc., if they all advertise they work the same, there is no reason to buy one specific product over another product or motivation for the public to buy one brand over another. That is not to say that some companies like Buffalo Bore and Corbon don't use proprietary powders or tweak the powders so that they cannot be exactly duplicated in the reloading powders. For example, the low flash cartridges that Corbon marketed flash cartridges about 15 years ago. Corbons were the darlings of self defense ammo for years. At one time, Nyclads, which I like myself.
It's all somewhat confusing to me.

BTW: I mentioned that Saxon Pig over here has done some good research on vintage standard 38 Special loads vs. today's +P loads, and I'd hoped he would chime in, but I think he spends more time here than at the Coltforum

 

[Art Doc]

As listed by the manufacturers +P generates 18,500 PSI of chamber pressure. This "+Pressure" is only so when compared to the current standard load at 16,000 PSI. The +P isn't really + at all, being 3,000 PSI below maximum allowable pressure for the caliber.

I believe the older "standard" loads with a 158 at 850 FPS were likely generating around 20,000 PSI. Starting in the late 1970s the fear of lawsuits caused them to reduce the loads and +P was created to fool consumers into thinking that high performance loads were still being sold by the mainstream ammo makers.

C'mon, just read the chart. Since when is a 125 grain bullet at 925 FPS any sort of hot load? I am totally perplexed at how shooters keep thinking +P is some sort of powerful load.

 

[Malysh]

I'd better mention that my statements about marketing consumables for a capitalistic society is not directed to Buffalo Bore ammo specifically. I am not implying that it doesn't do what it claims to do.
I am merely pointing out that everything sold is advertised here as "new and improved".

A member of the Colt forum has chrono'ed standard Buffalo Bore 38 Special loads for a 2" barrel snubby that shows about a 15% increase in velocity and ft. lbs. delivered over average standard 38 Special loads.
To me, an increase in efficiency of 15%-20% over other loads is the threshold for making it a better load worth buying. A load that only yields say, a 10% or less gain in efficiency is hardly worth buying to my thinking.

 

[Doug.38PR]

That was me.

HA! Didn't know you were over here too.

 

[Doug.38PR]

As listed by the manufacturers +P generates 18,500 PSI of chamber pressure. This "+Pressure" is only so when compared to the current standard load at 16,000 PSI. The +P isn't really + at all, being 3,000 PSI below maximum allowable pressure for the caliber.

I believe the older "standard" loads with a 158 at 850 FPS were likely generating around 20,000 PSI. Starting in the late 1970s the fear of lawsuits caused them to reduce the loads and +P was created to fool consumers into thinking that high performance loads were still being sold by the mainstream ammo makers.

C'mon, just read the chart. Since when is a 125 grain bullet at 925 FPS any sort of hot load? I am totally perplexed at how shooters keep thinking +P is some sort of powerful load.

I don't recall the barrel length you use for your shooting? I do recall a historian on the History Channel* saying on Modern Marvels episode of The Magnum, that until the .357 Magnum the police all used a .38 Special firing a 158 gr Lead Round Nose bullet going at about 890 ft pre second and this was not enough to penetrate the body armor and auto bodies of the time (hence this was a call for a stronger load that eventually lead to the .357 Magnum which was intended for a stronger police gun in the 1930s)

*I know, everything on History Channel should be taken with a grain of salt.