38 Special 158 gr LRN-good enough?

[BreakerDan]

Back in the day, 158 LRN was in every 38- pretty much.
We all say it was bad now, but then why was it so popular?
After having shot a lot of trapped hogs with it, I cant
see how it is that bad, and I say that with all honesty.
I mean just ask Lee Harvey Oswald or the DPD officer
he shot with them-wait....they are no longer available
for comment. I am not saying they are better than HP,
but not as bad as some say.

Yes, I know all the cylinder full horror stories, but would a
bigger round have stopped them? Anybody that has any
firsthand experience please chime in. The only failure to
stop that I have had was with a 38 was with an HP! That is
where my thinking is coming from.

 

[flop-shank]

Go ahead and carry them then. I'll continue to use JHPs. If they don't have a disadvantage, what is to be gained by using them?

When you've got totally separate camp, such as Marshall's and Fackler's, saying that the FBI load is excellent, why waste your time with RNL? IIRC, none other than Elmer Keith said that round balls from cap and ball revolvers were better stoppers than conicals.

 

[Spotteddog]

Or the third camp F/S?
The broad meplat fans.

 

[badge 851]

Back in the day, 158 LRN was in every 38- pretty much.
We all say it was bad now, but then why was it so popular?
After having shot a lot of trapped hogs with it, I cant
see how it is that bad, and I say that with all honesty.
I mean just ask Lee Harvey Oswald or the DPD officer
he shot with them-wait....they are no longer available
for comment. I am not saying they are better than HP,
but not as bad as some say.

Yes, I know all the cylinder full horror stories, but would a
bigger round have stopped them? Anybody that has any
firsthand experience please chime in. The only failure to
stop that I have had was with a 38 was with an HP! That is
where my thinking is coming from.

There are far too many better options available today. I would only use 158gr RNL for practice.

 

[roaddog28]

Back in the day, 158 LRN was in every 38- pretty much.
We all say it was bad now, but then why was it so popular?
After having shot a lot of trapped hogs with it, I cant
see how it is that bad, and I say that with all honesty.
I mean just ask Lee Harvey Oswald or the DPD officer
he shot with them-wait....they are no longer available
for comment. I am not saying they are better than HP,
but not as bad as some say.

Yes, I know all the cylinder full horror stories, but would a
bigger round have stopped them? Anybody that has any
firsthand experience please chime in. The only failure to
stop that I have had was with a 38 was with an HP! That is
where my thinking is coming from.

Everything I have ever read lately confirms that the LSWCHP is at the top of the list for a defense round in a 38 special. I carry them for defense in my model 10 and combat masterpiece. The round ball is great for practice but if my live is on the line I want the best.

The FBI has the track record.
roaddog

 

[mkk41]

The 158gr RNL was called the 'widowmaker' even back then. It probably looked good , even 'politically correct' , in the policeman's belt/cartridge loops , and was probably easy to load , even under pressure. It was/is notoriously ineffective by any standards. Probably on par with the 9mm FMJ , and we all know it's reputation.

In those pre SWC or reliably expanding hollow-point days , the .44 Special's 246gr RNL , .45 ACP's 230gr FMJ and .45 Colt 255gr RNL were touted as so much better simply because they were bigger.


What hurts more? Being stabbed with a small , pointy stick , or big , blunt stick?

 

[617fan]

Any round that penetrates deeply enough in the proper place is going to work, period.

 

[vytoland]

if you like the 158gr LRN and do your part correctly, the job will get done.

 

[danski]

I remember reading one study, it might have been by the U.S. Navy, that indicated the .38 RNL was a 50% one-shot stopper and the RNJ .45 ACP
was around 65%. Those were the two most prevalent rounds from the early 1900s to perhaps 1975.

 

[Erich]

I agree that it'll work fine if you place it right. Might overpenetrate. Not my first choice by any means, but I'd rather have that than a 100-gr zippity-doo-dah-fang-face-pre-fragmented-SEALTEAMSIX-DeathStar-Lazergraved-blastopoint.

 

[Steve C]

Ammo has gotten better over time and the old lead RN can kill and while not as effective as a hollow point it isn't exactly useless.

While the RN will work there's no reason to select it as a load to keep in your revolver for self defense when there's much better ammo around. If that's what you have when trouble arrives just aim well and shoot as many rounds as it takes to end that trouble which goes for any type of ammo selected.

 

[Treeman]

Of course the 158LRN is potentially lethal......but even back in the 1930s Hatcher was advising people to choose the Colt .38 special loading because it had a flatpoint bullet. I've shot enough animals with round nose bullets and flatnosed bullets in the same calibers and chamberings to be convinced that fat flat meplats do indeed enhance stopping power.........but I don't want to be shot with any of them.

 

[Spotteddog]

By the way counselor,
The description was hysterical, FYI!
Well Done!

 

[photoman]

There are no magic bullets. Some days a 158 LRN stops 'em quick and some days a 158 LHP just makes 'em mad.

Be prepared to rip out their eyeballs with your bare hands if you have to...

 

[pinkymingeo]

You don't need much research to conclude that handguns stink for self-defense. As long as your assailant is within range a baseball bat, five iron, lug wrench or large rock are much more reliable and effective. Some years ago a local deputy was shot three times in the chest with a 44mag. He was out of the fight, but lived to tell the tale. On the other hand, accounts of one-shot kills with 32 autos are common. If you get a CNS hit you win the fight, regardless of caliber or ammo. Otherwise nobody can predict what will happen, regardless of caliber or ammo. Use whatever ammo makes you feel good.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

Like others have said, the LRN will work and I've seen some very quickly fatal shootings with the load. Much of the effectiveness, relatively speaking, is that it often yaws 90 degrees during its penetration, which helps the performance somewhat. It's accurate and it's easy to load/reload into the charge holes.

The downsides are that it makes an otherwise very small permanant cavity and is horrible against hard barriers such as glass and bone, especially frontal and jaw bones. A good SWC or other flat pointed bullet will do better here and the FBI load is about as good as it gets in the .38 Special for anti-personnel use.

 

[Texas Star]

I talked with Dr. Vincent DiMaio in the 1970's, when Dallas PD adopted the FBI load on his recommendation.

In his tests, the RNL deposited only 74 ft. pounds of energy into his test block, gelatin, I think. The lead HP Plus P deposited over 200 ft. lbs.!

And penetration with the latter remained excellent.

Further discussions with Allan Jones, who was with the Dallas county forensics lab and later with Speer/CCI, confirmed my feeling that the lead HP is the way to go in .38 Special. Alas,few shops here stock it.

I also respect Speer's Gold Dot 125 grain JHP. It clocks over 900 FPS in a three-inch barrel, and has a very wide cavity. I have yet to find the 135 grain Short Barrel version.

When I was in the Air Force, I often carried a Colt .45 auto in part because I worried about the effectiveness of the .38 RN bullet. But some bases no longer inventoried .45's.

By the way, I was glad to see Wayne Dobbs's post. I met him once while he was with a suburban agency here, and he impressed me very favorably.
Like Stephen Camp, anything he posts is worth reading.

T-Star

 

[Brian P. Kenny]

158 gr. LRN ???

One of the main reasons many police used the 158 gr. LRN round in the big citys was an old feeling that so many police officers get shot with thier OWN guns.

Chief Davis in LA and O.W. Wilson in Chicago,felt that an officer shot with his own gun would have a better chance of living when hit with a low powered 158 gr. LRN that with a more powerfull round. The same reasoning would apply to persons hit in error by police bullets.

Davis and Wilson also felt that too much "range time" made police "trigger happy", so officers going to the range maybe once a year was plenty. Lack of range time and DAO service revolvers made for cops think that thier guns were the last thing they were going use when nessessary. Luckly those days are gone.

Brian P. Kenny
SWCA # 908

 

[Spotteddog]

Orlando W. Wilson (Chicago) was a fine man. But if that's how it unfolded, it's no wonder the FBI/Chicago load happened at the end of his tenure?

 

[danski]

I'm not so sure Orlando W. Wilson picked the .38 RNL to protect his officers who had their guns taken away but it might be true. But I
also know he approved the .41 Magnum and I knew of one officer who
carried a Model 58 and he said no one noticed his holster had something else than the Model 10.

As to flat point effectiveness, again I remember a Navy study in which they duplicated the original 9 mm. Luger round which started life as a flat point and also at very high pressures, ensuring the Luger autoloader would work. The Navy believes it could be a very effective round.