.38 special and .357 snubby questions

[Capt. Cormorant]

Well I just shot all of my lead TC bullets and moving to JHP 125 grain.

1. What's the best powder to use for .38 and .357 "1 7/8 barrel"?
Currently I’m using Clays.....

2. Will I need to flare the casing to seat the JHP?

3. Will I need a tight crimp on JHP?

Any help will be appreciated

Thanks,

C.C.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Capt,

My preference is the following....


357 mag brass

Speer 125 gr JHP

21.0 gr W296

Win spm

This "approximates"most of the full 125 loads out there.

About the flare and crimp....the case mouth shouldn't be flared more than necessary to seat the bullet.Non jacketed bullets should be flared a bit more.A good firm crimp in the crimp groove is highly recommended.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

I had a senior moment and forgot that you asked about 38 special as well.I don't load that bullet in the 38 so someone will chime in about that.

My suggestion was for the 357 mag.

 

[fredj338]

Clays would probably be the last powder I would choose for a high peformance 125gr load in the 357mag. What level of vel are you looking to get? The med. burners like Unique, WSF & Universal all give pretty good snub performance w/ managable muzzle blast. Yep, W296/H110 will give max vel. but a fierce muzzle blast.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

canoe on the yukon...Just questioning the above figures:

Speer 125 gr JHP
21.0 gr W296

I just loaded 100 rounds of .38 Special using Speer 125gr JHP and
IMR 700-X. The Speer book called for 4.6 grs of 700-X

21 grs of any powder seems more like a rifle round...

 

[Skip Sackett]

Can't always do that........

canoe on the yukon...Just questioning the above figures:

Speer 125 gr JHP
21.0 gr W296

I just loaded 100 rounds of .38 Special using Speer 125gr JHP and
IMR 700-X. The Speer book called for 4.6 grs of 700-X

21 grs of any powder seems more like a rifle round...

You have to compare apples to apples. 38spl to 38spl and 357Mag to 357Mag, 700x to 700x and H110 to H110.

Actually, according to Hodgdon's data, H110 can go to 22.0gr with a 125gr XTP and 700x's maximum load for the same bullet is 6.4gr in 357Mag cases.

The slower the powder, USUALLY, the load uses more powder. You also get a bunch more velocity than with a slower one.

The above loads give you 1399fps (700x) and 1900fps (H110). You get to decide if the added recoil is worth it or not.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

One thing to consider with snubbies is that powders on the fast to medium side will usually give as good, or better velocities as the slower powders. They build pressures quicker, and instill a quicker push on the bullet. This is not to say that you should use an equal amount of any fast powder that is recommended with a slow powder. NOT EVER!!

Always follow the reloading manuals, or known and respected published materials.

Slower powders just don't build to peak pressures in very short barrels like the 1 7/8", and 2"er's.

 

[Paul5388]

Skip,

I'd have to see those numbers on a chronograph to believe they're possible out of a 1 7/8" barrel.

There have been quite a few loads published with lots of fast burning powder. I personally prefer a medium burning powder, especially if it will fill the case pretty well.

I have been shooting 125 gr JHP bullets in .357 Mag for over 35 years, but recently I have come to the conclusion a 158 gr LSWC is probably a better selection at normal handgun ranges.

 

[Hoptob]

357 mag brass

Speer 125 gr JHP

21.0 gr W296

Win spm

It's one of my favorites too. I use 21.5 gr. H110 and it clockes 1450 fps from a 4-incher and 1250 fps from 2-incher. But... that's a 24 oz. 2-incher. The only 1-7/8" 357mag revolvers I know of are 12 oz. S&W340 and 360. I'd say it's way too much of a load for a 12 oz. gun.

Cap, what kind of load are you looking for? Meaning what are you planning to do with it?

Mike

 

[Capt. Cormorant]

It's one of my favorites too. I use 21.5 gr. H110 and it clockes 1450 fps from a 4-incher and 1250 fps from 2-incher. But... that's a 24 oz. 2-incher. The only 1-7/8" 357mag revolvers I know of are 12 oz. S&W340 and 360. I'd say it's way too much of a load for a 12 oz. gun.

Cap, what kind of load are you looking for? Meaning what are you planning to do with it?

Mike

Good Job Mike!

Yes,

I do have S&W 340ct and a S&W 642"Mrs." I just got into reloading about 2 months ago. I have 3000 of zero 125gr. jhp bullets in route. I plan on killing some tin cans and some paper and steel targets. I do a lot of practice drawing my weapon and shooting for self defense "drills". One thing I don't own yet is a crono. Everything I read with a grain of salt of course is that I needed a fast powder for a snub. I don't mind recoil I'm sort of a junkie I guess. I have shot enuff rounds out of the 340 to blow out my ct grips. So what I'm looking for are some good rounds for my wife to shoot with .38spl and me. I would like to keep the recoil mild for the .38spl for her. Also some good wrist breakers for .357mag for me. I would like to keep it simple with one powder if possible. I don't mind using a fast burning powder that doesn't fill up the case. Since I'm using a single stage press.


Thanks

C.C

 

[Capt. Cormorant]

You have to compare apples to apples. 38spl to 38spl and 357Mag to 357Mag, 700x to 700x and H110 to H110.

Actually, according to Hodgdon's data, H110 can go to 22.0gr with a 125gr XTP and 700x's maximum load for the same bullet is 6.4gr in 357Mag cases.

The slower the powder, USUALLY, the load uses more powder. You also get a bunch more velocity than with a slower one.

The above loads give you 1399fps (700x) and 1900fps (H110). You get to decide if the added recoil is worth it or not.

700x has my interest anyone have experience with it?Is it clean burner and how's the smoke? This powder would keep my cost down per round..

Keep it coming thanks everyone for the input....

 

[geoff40]

Personally, if I were loading only for a snubby, I'd go with the Unique loads. For the reason that complete (or nearly so) powder ignition is still very much the norm, while with most other slower powders you will get more partially burned powder exiting the bore, more muzzle flash, etc.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Slower powders = higher velocities, period!

Do not use the data posted in this picture without working up to it. It is from outdated data and is only used to illustrate ONE point. And this is it: "Slower powders equals higher velocity no matter what the barrel length, period."
Are there other detractors from using them in shorter barrels? Yes, and I'm not advocating their use per se, just trying to correct some information thought to be conventional wisdom with actual results.

Some think because of their burn rate slower powders don't do enough work to push a bullet in shorter barrels, not true. They work enough. Are they the most efficient for use in a shorter barrel? No, that is why you get the increased muzzle flash. Still, all in all, they produce the greatest velocity.

Let's say you have a bullet that has to travel @ 900fps in order to expand, an XTP say, how are you going to get that from a 1 7/8" barrel with the likes of Bullseye or 700X or W231/HP-38 for that matter? You won't do it safely, that's for sure. 2400, H110, and some of the other slow powders and you might just be able to do so.

Paul, I'm sure they didn't use a 1 7/8" barrel for those velocity tests, but it does illustrate my point none the less.

There is another interesting article from long ago concerning this subject. I'll post it as well.

These three pages should be enough of the article to be of some help.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Skip,

In that same manual(Speer#8),there are 357 snubby loads/velocities.I was surprised you didn't use it.

You're right about slower powders giving higher velocity with the shorter barrels as well as the longer ones.Many have reasoned otherwise without getting the data.

If someone is sensitive to blast,flash or recoil,that is a seperate issue.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Oh, I know that data is there!

Skip,

In that same manual(Speer#8),there are 357 snubby loads/velocities.I was surprised you didn't use it.

You're right about slower powders giving higher velocity with the shorter barrels as well as the longer ones.Many have reasoned otherwise without getting the data.

If someone is sensitive to blast,flash or recoil,that is a seperate issue.

canoe,
That data is there for sure. I was just pointing out that the slower powders do produce greater velocities even with shorter barrels. I agree, if someone is sensitive to muzzle flash, don't use them.

You will also notice that these loads are suggested for police officers to carry in their "BUGS" so they can get the maximum effectiveness from them. Something you won't find in later re-loading information!

Just to be fair though, here it is:

Be sure to read the information at the upper left of the left page!

 

[canoe on the yukon]

The Speer # 11 manual gives data that is just as hot.The fact that it doesn't specifically add a page with chronograghed figures with the same loads being used in a snubby seems beside the point.

If someone is sensitive about recoil,blast or flash,they,in my opinion,should just admit it and be done with it.For them,it makes sense to lower the power level to something they can deal with.But again....that is a seperate issue.

Getting back to what can be done.....The 357 magnum snubby can safely and efficiently push a 125 gr bullet at velocities well in excess of 1300 FPS.

 

[My Eye!]

Heck, get a can of Bullseye and you'll never look back. It will give you the best performance in the short barrels, and the best economy for shells per pound.

My favorite all around load for 357 (wife and me) is 7.5 gr. Bullseye, 125 gr. JHP, standard primer, 1.590 OAL. It is only a mid power load with room to grow if ya wanted to. Accuracy is super. I've never found another powder that groups better than Bullseye, and you won't find another that gives you more bang for your buck.

And yeah, I'm kinda old fashioned.

Jim

 

[Hoptob]

Cap,

For 340 and 642 I'd settle on one of the fast burning powders. I use Titegroup but Clays or BE would work just as well. 4.5 gr. TG under 125 gr. JHP in 38 spl cases is a light plinking load, it will kill all tin cans you want. You can go up to 5 gr. TG and still shoot it in both of your guns.

For 340 you can charge with up to 7.5 gr. TG in 357mag brass. It's not a full house load but you'll be sure to know that you've actually shot something I won't go any higher than that in 340.

Mike

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Skip, since you seem to be referring to my post that fast to medium powders will do as well as slow powders....

The op asked about 125 grain bullets, so that is what I was referring to. Especially in .38.

Your posts shows that Unique, and HS-6 will equal or come close enough for all practical purposes the slower powders, and with only about 60% of the amount needed to get the job done. In fact several of my manuals show HS-6 as being about perfect for top speeds at normal pressures. I have several articles in various magazines that say the same thing. I just don't have a scanner to print them up for the forum. HS-6 is considered a medium burn rate powder.

As far as muzzle flash goes, it has little to do with burn rates. It does have to do with case volumn and the oxygen in the atmosphere . There is an extremely interesting article on dispelling myths in Handloader #217. One of the myths is flash. It is caused by hot gas hitting the oxygen rich atmosphere and igniting it. Fast powders will burn hotter sooner, which tends to cause more flash with them, then with slow powders.

I have personally expeienced this many times at our indoor range, where we are limited to lighter loads. Many times someone has come over and asked what load I'm using since the flash makes them think I'm using loads that are at full throttle, and thus against the rules. This has happened with .38's and .45 Colt mainly, but there have been other rounds as well. Those loads are generally utilizing 231 at mid range levels.

 

[Hoptob]

With all due respect, Gun4Fun, my experience with muzzle flash differs from yours. I did an experiment once. Loaded max 357mag charges of TG, HS6 and H110 under 125 gr. JHP and shot them one after another from 2-1/4" 640. I had another person, my daughter, watching the muzzle flash as it is difficult for a shooter to observe the flash. She did not know what was in the loads and was just reporting on the size of the flash. H110 was a clear winner; the flash was well over 3' long...

Mike