.38 Special Caliber Magnum Loading

Cdog

Cdog

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Disclaimer up front.

I did this for my own curiosity. I do not recommend anyone "Trying This At Home!"

As I've stated many times, I've pretty much always shot .38 Special in .357 Magnum revolvers.

Times changed and I now desire a more potent load, no .357 Mag brass to be found!

Oh I have a few pieces of .357 brass, just not near enough.

I've loaded and used high pressure .45 Colt rounds in my Blackhawks for years, so I thought let's try some high pressure ".38 Special/.357 Mag Only" rounds.

I took the slowest burning none spherical powder I have and loaded a 158 grain Hornady XTP crimped at the top of the cannelure atop 16 grains of Lil Gun using a standard primed Winchester .38 Special case.

I shot that one with no ill effect. Round primer and easy extraction. I resized, primed and loaded that same case along with five more mixed headstamp cases and set a target at ten yards.

The first 3 were near touching, the next 3 I pulled a bit left. They were of course below point of aim, but a very good group.

Again round primers and easy extraction.

I searched high and low for my chronograph. I found the tripod, but no sign of the chronograph. I recently moved and have no idea of where to look next. Maybe Midway for a new one...

I'm expecting 1400+ fps, guesstimate only.

I'm going to load these six pieces of brass to observe for any signs of obvious stress.

The test firearm is a 4" 6 shot Ruger GP100 .357 Mag that I've had for many years.

It has been fun, kinda got the adrenaline flowing while squeezing the trigger on that first one!
 
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Original Lyman mould design 358156 was designed with two crimp grooves . The upper groove was for loading in 357 magnum brass ...
the lower groove was used when loading with 38 special brass .
Seating in the lower groove gave the same case volume as when using the harder to find magnum brass . A quick glance showed the rounds were longer and intended for the magnum length cylinder / chamber .
These long loaded rounds may not even chamber in a 38 special revolver. My only revolver was a Ruger Blackhawk 357 mag. so I never tried them in a 38 special .
Lyman still makes this mould as does NOE 360-165-SWC (NOE makes this design in 4 different weights)... If you want / have to use 38 special brass to load 357 magnum loads this bullet is the safe way to do it .
Gary
 
I don't recommend using 38 Special brass in trying to load near 357 Magnum loads either, but there is a reason we had the S&W .38/44 HD.;) It be done safely, but be really, really thoughtful.
 
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stansdds said:
I don't recommend using 38 Special brass in trying to load near 357 Magnum loads either, but there is a reason we had the S&W .38/44 HD.;) Can it be done safely, but be really, really thoughtful.
Click to expand...

I would agree the Ruger is the modern equivalent of the S&W .38/44 HD.

It is chambered in .357 mag so....carry on.

I just wouldn't shoot it out of your 38 special weapons.

2400 powder is awesome for this type of loading IMO.
 
IMHO 38/44 loads would work just fine . Usual caveat about keeping such loads clearly marked , +P cases & seperate so they don't find their way into a weaker gun . That's what I do with loads for my pre 23 ODM unreamed so I use Starline +P cases . I use the Keith 358429 cast around BHN 12 , WLL Carnuba Red . Old Elmer's original load of 13.5 is stout even by 357 mag levels , since I'm shooting an older irreplacable I use 12.5grs 2400 for max , milder but still serious 7.5grs SR4756 or 12.5grs H4227 . 2400 loads runs about 1350 , 4756 around 1150 & 4227 around 1200 . All are accurate & have sufficent power if needed . FWIW 13.5grs 2400 with the 358156 is a good load combining accuracy with enough juice for serious work .
 
I won't debate this here, but I offer it as a favor to the advantage of anyone who cares to read it.

Hodgdon Lil'Gun may very well destroy the barrel of any revolver that you use it in. This info was first disseminated by Freedom Arms and their testing and experience in the .454 Casull. And it is worth noting that Freedom is one of very few gun manufacturers that condones handloading for their firearms.
 
Nevada Ed said:
Nothing wrong with your tests.............

just make sure that all your loads are shot and not left around, where they might
be picked up and put into a 38 special, by someone.

Have fun.
Click to expand...
This would be my primary concern as well. Not only that someone else might put them in a 38 special, but that I might someday have a "senior moment" (or brain fart if you prefer) and do it myself.
Sounds like you REALLY need some 357 mag brass.
 
For some reason I've never really thought about having to use +P brass for a +P load. I've *seen* +P brass, but thought that was just stamped that way because it came from the factory with a +P load in it.

Is it really that different in 38 Special?

The Keith loads I was going to try (in a 357) I was going to shoot all up, don't like the idea of keeping them around to wind up in a non-357 gun. I'll have to get some 357 brass for the heavy stuff.
 
mikerjf said:
For some reason I've never really thought about having to use +P brass for a +P load. I've *seen* +P brass, but thought that was just stamped that way because it came from the factory with a +P load in it.

Is it really that different in 38 Special?

The Keith loads I was going to try (in a 357) I was going to shoot all up, don't like the idea of keeping them around to wind up in a non-357 gun. I'll have to get some 357 brass for the heavy stuff.
Click to expand...

The +P head stamp is only to provide notice that the original factory loading was +P. There is no structural difference in the brass case itself (other than normal manufacturing tolerances and differences from one maker to another).

I have always labeled my reloaded ammunition with date, caliber, primer, powder charge, and bullet spec. I have evolved to using different colors of boxes for .38 Special standard pressure loads and .38 +P loads because I use both frequently. Loads that I have no hesitation in using for steel-framed medium and large revolvers are not the same that I use in my small alloy-frame revolvers.

I own K-frames in both .38 Special and .357 magnum. I don't use magnum ammunition in non-magnum revolvers, but I regularly shoot +P ammunition in either. I really don't care to shoot magnum ammunition in K-frames. Even my home-load .357 magnum ammo is well below maximums; I call them .357 Light (plenty of power for my purposes, but not gut-wrenching flame-throwing wrist-breaking assaults on my hearing and brain that some folks seem to consider normal!).

Your methods may vary.
 
I agree that 38spl brass can give .357 performance in a .357 gun.The only place I would not go along with you is when you say 1400fps with a 158gr.It sure can be done but I must tell you that there were quite a few loads I'd have sworn they were in or near the 1400fps in 357 and 44 mag that were,after I got me a chrono barely over 1300fps.
That kinda cooled down my aspirations towards the 1400mark!
 
I appreciate all the comments.

The smiles mentioned by LoboGunLeather sure brought a smile to me.

I'm well aware of the reputation of Lil Gun and excessive heat. I only chose to test with it because it's the slowest non spherical shotgun/handgun powder I have on hand. I wanted to see what I could do with standard primers, and I simply wasn't going to try W296/H110 without a magnum primer.

Lil Gun is used for 300 B/O.

I'm not new to ammo segregation.
I've kept Ruger only loads out of 629's and Italian .45 Colt's for years.

I believe I can manage these .38 Special/.357 Magnum only loads.

It's one of those, "I gots to know" things.
 
Cdog said:
I appreciate all the comments.

The smiles mentioned by LoboGunLeather sure brought a smile to me.

I'm well aware of the reputation of Lil Gun and excessive heat. I only chose to test with it because it's the slowest non spherical shotgun/handgun powder I have on hand. I wanted to see what I could do with standard primers, and I simply wasn't going to try W296/H110 without a magnum primer.

Lil Gun is used for 300 B/O.

I'm not new to ammo segregation.
I've kept Ruger only loads out of 629's and Italian .45 Colt's for years.

I believe I can manage these .38 Special/.357 Magnum only loads.

It's one of those, "I gots to know" things.
Click to expand...

I think there are a lot of us "Old" timers and a few "Green horns" that have tried loads that were not on the books.............
just to see what's, what.

I was amazed at how slow a bullet could go out of a J frame 2",
686 6" and a 3.5 & 5" 9mm pistol over the years and not turn into a squib !!
I also "Pushed" a few powders in a quality built 9mm and .357 Magnum, past the "New Data" manuals to see how they stand up
to the "Atomic" #8, Speer manual , king of the hill, loads.

Never gave these loads out except the one 9mm load, using IMR 4227 powder in a 3.5" barrel 9mm pistol.

X-Lite loads are no problem if you see a hole in the paper or dust kicked up, behind the target.
It is sort of slick with an auto pistol, with ear muffs on and being able to hear the slide working !! :D

This is all behind me now..................... I think?

Nice light target and standard loads are now used 96% of the time.

Have fun.
 
mikerjf said:
For some reason I've never really thought about having to use +P brass for a +P load. I've *seen* +P brass, but thought that was just stamped that way because it came from the factory with a +P load in it.

Is it really that different in 38 Special?

The Keith loads I was going to try (in a 357) I was going to shoot all up, don't like the idea of keeping them around to wind up in a non-357 gun. I'll have to get some 357 brass for the heavy stuff.
Click to expand...

Modern 38 Special brass is the same as 38 Special +P brass in terms of case capacity and construction. The +P stamp is only to indicate that the ammo is loaded to pressure levels higher than 38 Special. 38 Special WC brass is different, the case wall web is located much closer to the case head so that long, hollow base wadcutter bullets can be seated without undersizing the bullet's skirt.

These days, if loading 38 Special to +P levels or to 38/44 levels, I would definitely want my brass marked as +P. Too bad +P+ marked brass is not readily available.

Yes, there is 38 Special +P+ brass, I know Winchester used to have nickel plated +P+ 110 grain law enforcement loads and the brass was marked +P+.
 
++p and 38/44 Loads

Son and I having 357 pistols but no brass looked into such loadings for 38spl cases. What I found on the internet ( don't remember where do your own research) is use 38 Super loading information. I have no real need for such loads. I'm satisfied with standard velocity defense loads for home defense and +p for outside the house. Just for curiosity I will weight cases and see if +p cases are thicker.
 
rich5674 said:
Son and I having 357 pistols but no brass looked into such loadings for 38spl cases. What I found on the internet ( don't remember where do your own research) is use 38 Super loading information. I have no real need for such loads. I'm satisfied with standard velocity defense loads for home defense and +p for outside the house. Just for curiosity I will weight cases and see if +p cases are thicker.
Click to expand...


That sounds like a good approach with the Super data.

If you look at Hodgdon's load data you'll see I used the suggested starting load of 16 grains in the .357 data.

This was an itch that had to be scratched.

If I do load much in .357 in the near future I'll likely end up transitioning from W296/H110 to something like CFE Pistol due to my low number of SP Magnum primers.

I use Universal for the vast majority of my handguns, but I also have a decent stock of the CFE.
 
Kosh75287 said:
CFE-Pistol is okay in .357, about like Herco, if memory serves. If you want magnum-level performance without the need for magnum primers, just use Alliant 2400.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. 2400 is on my list.

I've used a lot of Alliant rifle powder. Reloader 15 and 19 are two of my "Go To" powders for .308 and 30-06.

In the last 20 years there's little to no Alliant powders to be found locally. Availability played a role in switching from Unique to Universal.

I usually have to buy anything from Alliant online or at gun shows.

Gun shows have pretty much be covid out, and shopping for much of anything online is sad. Powder Valley has the least inventory I recall ever.
 
Cdog said:
I'm well aware of the reputation of Lil Gun and excessive heat. I only chose to test with it because it's the slowest non spherical shotgun/handgun powder I have on hand. I wanted to see what I could do with standard primers, and I simply wasn't going to try W296/H110 without a magnum primer.
Click to expand...

Lil'Gun is a double base ball/spherical powder & most manuals recommend using a magnum primer with it.

It is more foregiving however than H110/W296.

.
.

stansdds said:
38 Special WC brass is different, the case wall web is located much closer to the case head so that long, hollow base wadcutter bullets can be seated without undersizing the bullet's skirt.
Click to expand...

Agreed, not all 38 Special brass is the same..

Previously I did a check comparing the 38 Spcl (WC) wadcutter double cannelure brass walls to a 38 Spcl (+P)'s brass walls.

Using a .350" plug gage (the biggest that would pass by the case's inside ridges caused by the double cannelures), it would extend ~.725" into the wadcutter double cannelure case but only ~.460" into the (+P) case, a difference of ~.260".

That shows the wadcutter's walls are straighter & the (+P)s lower walls are more tapered & thicker.

The wadcutter's walls only start getting thick just below it's lower cannelure while the (+P)'s starts getting thicker higher, where the upper cannelure would be on it, if it had one.

Save the wadcutter brass for standard pressure 38 Spcl. loads.

.
 
I considered starting a new thread, but sort'a like the way this one has developed...

SPEAKING OF... Hornady XTP's, CFE-Pistol powder, 357 Magnum vs. 38 Special (and +P) and "ammunition segregation" & even "flame cutting"...

Factory Fiocchi Extrema 110gr 38 Special +P using the Hornady bullet lists velocity at 1,000 fps & energy at 244 ft. lbs.

Hodgdons lists a 38 Special +P load for this same bullet (7.0 gr of CFE-Pistol at 1.455") developing 1,303 fps and 18,400 psi.

No need to segregate (except from your non-+P guns), no flame cutting, and what I consider to be "close to"(?) 357 Magnum velocities... Well, sort'a close?

Anybody with an estimate of energy for this load?

Cheers!

P.S. The Hornady Critical Defense load for a 110gr FTX is not much faster (as in ONLY +10 fps!) than the Fiocchi? Nor is the Corbon!:eek:
 
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Main reason I use +P cases ( Starline ) for these type loads is at a glance I know what it is . I do have a slew of older 38 special target only guns that I'd like to keep in one piece . Most only see wadcutter loads as they're dedicated precision paper punchers only . I also mark casehead with a Red sharpie on the hot loads .
If one is going to chase 38/44 level loads you are pretty much wildcatting . I figure if I'm getting 1300fps with a 173gr ( my alloy ) 358429 that's enough , some cases too much . Watch your chrono when spreads tighten you're pretty close to best load & if they open with just a tenth or two of a grain more back off . Most efficent load might not give best accuracy either , sometimes a little less powder & groups will tighten . Many variables to consider . IMHO best all around for 38/44 loads is SR 4756 7.5grs with 358429 , 8.0 with 358156 . 8.5grs in 357 with 358429 will run around 1250fps 6" barrel . It does not like to be crowded & will get spikey . 2400 even at 12.5grs spreads are wide but in my gun it's accurate .
 
I prefer using 2400 for original 38-44 factory equivalent (11.0 grs 2400 and 158 gr lead). To approximate the chronographed velocity of the 1960s 158 gr lead 38-44 factory loads you can use Speer's max 38 Spl +P loading using Power Pistol (6.0 grs) and 158 gr lead swc. We chronographed the 6.0 grs Power Pistol and 158 gr swc at 1,061 FPS from 6 inch S&W Model 10.
 
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