.38 Special original charge weight?

[Wayne Dobbs]

I know that a credible source is out there, but can't find it right now, so what is the original Bullseye powder charge weight for the factory .38 Special load? I've heard 3.6 grains with the 158 RNL. Is that correct or just anecdotal?

 

[glowe]

Not quite sure what you are trying to find. The most credible source is the Bullseye powder manufacturer's reloading recipes. Go to Alliant Powder website and look it up.

As far as I know, there is no "original" Bullseye charge weight for 38 Special, but 3.5 grains will get you just over 800 fps with a 158 grain SWC.

 

[OKFC05]

The ammunition manufacturers do not give out the charge weight or even the type of powder used, both of which may change from lot to lot. Some batches are custom mixed from powders not available to the public.
I have listened to many people who pulled apart (or know some guy who did) a cartridge and pronounced the amount and type of propellant in factory cartridges. I never argue, just ignore.

The reloading manuals and a chrono will facilitate loading to your desired MV.

 

[rwsmith]

If you REALLY want to be.....

If you REALLY want to be original, a good guess would be a caseload of Black powder.

Here are some points in time:

During World War II, some U.S. aircrew (primarily Navy and Marine Corps) were issued .38 Special S&W Victory revolvers as sidearms in the event of a forced landing. In May 1943, a new .38 Special cartridge with a 158 grains (10.2 g), full-steel-jacketed, copper flash-coated bullet meeting the requirements of the rules of land warfare was developed at Springfield Armory and adopted for the Smith & Wesson revolvers.[18] The new military .38 Special loading propelled its 158 grains (10.2 g) bullet at a standard 850 ft/s (260 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.

Around 1961 a request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.[21] Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[2

"In 1956, the U.S. Air Force adopted the Cartridge, Caliber .38, Ball M41, a military variant of the .38 Special cartridge designed to conform to the rules of land warfare. The original .38 M41 ball cartridge used a 130-grain full-metal-jacketed bullet, and was loaded to an average pressure of only 13,000 pounds per square inch (90 MPa), giving a muzzle velocity of approximately 725 ft/s (221 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) barrel"

I don't think factory loads EVER used Bullseye as we know it in cannister powder but - The transition to smokeless powder was rapid and the Special quickly built a reputation as an exceptionally accurate cartridge. It was soon dominating centerfire pistol matches and was widely adopted by police agencies. Not until the 1980's did service autoloaders seriously challenge the popularity of the .38 revolver for police use in the U.S.

For match shooting, a 148 grain lead wadcutter bullet at about 700 fps became the load of choice. Factory loaded match ammunition is offered by Remington, Winchester and Federal, among others. Reloaders typically use a very light charge of an extremely fast burning powder for target loads, such as 2.8 grains of Bullseye, behind a hollow base wadcutter bullet. These are the minimum power .38 loads that most shooters find useful. They are a mild and exceptionally accurate choice for target shooting and plinking.

 

[HKSmith]

Although the .38 Special when introduced in 1899 was a black powder cartridge, smokeless loads were being marketed within about one year. Although ammo manufacturers have not used canister powders for many years, I believe that Bullseye was used for commercial ammo at the dawn of the smokeless powder age. My recollection (and it's only that) is that the standard load was 3.3 grains of Bullseye under a 158 grain lead bullet.

I don't think the OP was asking for reloading info, just historical info.

 

[Nevada Ed]

In my notes that I have gathered about the 38 special I have;

1898, Smith & Wesson 38 Special, with a M&P model 10 used
from 18 to 21 grains of Black Powder in its loadings.

The use of Bullseye, a smokeless powder, is just a way to try and copy
the results of the black powder data that first came out.

There were several powders used back then but they have all died off,
except for Bullseye that some how as survived over all this time.

 

[mikld]

Not meant to be a hijack, but kinda a "hitchhike"; What was the original bullet shape and weight? 200 grain lead round nose sounds familiar...

 

[HKSmith]

The .38 Special cartridge was introduced, along with the M&P revolver, in 1899, not 1898. It wasn't called the Model 10 until 1957. The original bullet was a 158 grain lead round nose. The 200 grain loading was called the Super Police load and I think was introduced in the 1920's or 1930's.

There are actually two powders still in production from that era, Bullseye and Unique. The current manufacturer, Alliant, still has a sample of the first lot of Unique (or possibly Bullseye) that they test from time to time and it still meets current specs! I wish I could say the same for me.

 

[Rule3]

The only "classic" or Historical load I know of is for the Military 45 ACP have not read one for the 38 special.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I believe the 38 special was designed in 1889 to replace the 38 Colt long, to improve ballistics. The longer case of the 38 special allowed it to have a charge of 21 grains of black powder, where the 38 Long had only 18 grains of powder for its maximum loading but both used a lead 158 grain bullet.

The 200 grain bullet did not come along until the 1920's.

Records show the model ten getting its second improvement to it by S&W in 1902 and the cylinder getting heat treated in 1919, making the K frame even stronger.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

It was correct that I was asking for historical and not reloading information. I've loaded the round for over 40 years now with lots of satisfaction! Just as I'd read years ago that 5.0 of Bullseye was the original .45 ACP load, I know I read that Bullseye was the original smokeless powder for the cartridge. I thought I read the charge was 3.6 grains and was looking for some kind of credible reference.

 

[125JHP]

Not the orig load, but only as general historical load range info for BE;

The 1949 B&M manual lists a 158 LRN with a max of 3.5g @ 910 fps.
If one used their #359160 LRN mold then the max was 3.0 @ 850 fps.

In the 1951 Phil Sharpe manual he shows several 158gr LRN loads as recommended by Hercules Powder, 1.5g @515 fps, 2.5g @730fps, 3.5g @910fps and two that he recommends for heavy frame (38/44) loads of 4.0 and 4.3g @1010 fps. (in some modern manuals 4.0 BE is considered +P so don't use that in light frames [J & K])

So one of those should be close to the factory specs, I would guess between 3 and 3.5.

 

[TripleLock]

In the Ideal Handbook No.17 (from c.1906), the smokeless powder load for .38 S&W Special is shown to be 3 1/2 grains of Laflin & Rand Bullseye, either a No.6 U.M.C. or 1-1/2W Winchester primer, and bullet No.358250 weighing 157 grains.

Ideal Handbook No.15 (c.1903) lists bullet No.358210 weighing 167 grains for .38 S&W Military, but no powder charge is listed. An advertisement for Laflin & Rand powders in the same handbook lists 3 grains (or 3/16 drams) of Bull's-Eye for that same cartridge.

Early Bullseye powder can labels list powder charges for the .38 S&W Special ranging from 3.0 grains (earliest, c.1898-1904) to 3.5 grains (c.1904-1930s).

FWIW, were any of you guys aware that Bullseye was produced by Du Pont from 1904 to 1912?

 

[LostintheOzone]

^
I think this as close as it gets.

From the Alliant website;

Alliant's origins as a gunpowder manufacturer can be traced back more than 125 years to the DuPont Company, whose leadership position in the explosives industry is legendary. DuPont's divestiture in 1912 created the Hercules Power Company as an independent entity, and eventually resulted in Alliant becoming America's premier gunpowder manufacturer.

The long, proud history of Alliant Powder began in 1872 as Laflin & Rand, later to become Hercules Powder Company

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Nevada Ed has it right. 21 grns of Black (FFFG if I remember correctly). I pulled one old round and found it had 21 grns of black in it but the bullet was a 150 grn LRN not a 158 LRN which I found interesting.