.38 Special +P limits in reloading manuels

[Doug.38PR]

Okay, it's said that out of a 4 inch barrel, .38 Special +P 158 gr bullets in FACTORY ammo gets you about 890 ft per second.
I checked my reloading manuels, a Speer manuel and a Hornandy manuel.

Hornandy doesn't even have a +P section and none of their powders take you past 850 ft per second.

Speer's maximum for +P is between 905-1037 ft per second. I think the hottest powder listed is Power Pistol (don't see 2400). That sounds pretty impressive....until I saw it was tested with a 6 inch barrel, which would reduce the results out of a 4 inch barrel well below factory ammo. Pretty pathetic....I've always heard reload powders are better than what factory dumps in those cartridges.

I know the manuels say "Maximum means just that, don't go beyond it" and I wouldn't dream of advocating anything dangerous...but...isn't that a little weak?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The +P rating on a .38 Special doesn't pertain to velocity, it is a pressure designation. Sure as the pressure goes up so does velocity but you can't reliably know if a round is +P or not by velocity alone.

That said, HS-6 will get you the velocity you're looking for without surpassing the SAAMI pressure limits.

 

[OKFC05]

Hodgdon on-line data has a .38 +P section.
Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com

You can't rely on data charts for velocity out of your gun. That's what chronographs are for.

Another thing you need to know that standard .38 is 17,000 PSI and +P .38 only increases that to 20,000 PSI. If you want to shoot higher pressure, any .357 revolver will fill the bill with a wide variety of .357 loads from mild to wild. SAAMI max pressure for .357 is 35,000 PSI.

 

[Dragon88]

Yup. Choosing the right powder for your 38 Special, or taking the step up to 357 Magnum, is much more effective than worrying about "+P" in handloading.

 

[Doug.38PR]

You can't rely on data charts for velocity out of your gun. That's what chronographs are for.

.

Oh I understand that. I know velocity will differ slightly between four different guns of the same barrel length. But as a go-by the charts seem a little low compared to what say Remington factory ammo has been cited at in velocity

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Oh I understand that. I know velocity will differ slightly between four different guns of the same barrel length. But as a go-by the charts seem a little low compared to what say Remington factory ammo has been cited at in velocity

In cases like that you have to do a little detective work for yourself. If the load data tells you the pressures being generated are only 17,200 psi at the max load you know you have some room to add a little powder without exceeding the pressure limits. OR, find an older manual to verify what you are thinking about increasing...

Warning, this is only a suggestion. If you are not comfortable using data that isn't published, don't do it.

 

[Doug.38PR]

In cases like that you have to do a little detective work for yourself. If the load data tells you the pressures being generated are only 17,200 psi at the max load you know you have some room to add a little powder without exceeding the pressure limits. OR, find an older manual to verify what you are thinking about increasing...

Warning, this is only a suggestion. If you are not comfortable using data that isn't published, don't do it.

Isn't that dangerous? To my understanding, using old data with powders made today (even of the same brand name) is not accurate as the powders have changed over time

 

[Skip Sackett]

Isn't that dangerous? To my understanding, using old data with powders made today (even of the same brand name) is not accurate as the powders have changed over time

Doug,
You are technically correct. It is dangerous but only from this one standpoint: the powder you use today and the powder that was manufactured years ago, are different lots. PERIOD.

What would happen in today's litigious society if you used current data with an old can of that brand of powder and blew up your gun? You would own part of that company, if you were still alive that is.

Listen, I have heard this nonsense, and that is not aimed at you, for years and years. There is NO WAY that a powder company is going to knowingly sell something that is going to act like that. That powder that is out of specification will go to a commercial loader and be used in factory ammo where they can build it to match the burn rate. It is NOT going to make it to "joe blow", commoner on the street. Their lawyers would have a FIT!

No matter what you do, use old powder with new data, use new powder with old data, YOU are the only safety there is. Use this rule and you should be safe, it is the #1 rule in reloading/handloading: Change 1 component, start at the lowest powder charge and work your way back up in your firearms, um, period.

Again, this is not directed at you just, the stuff that gets spread as "truth" on the www and gun shop lawyers. Kind of the same thing Ayoob does with the "no handloads for self defense" argument.

 

[Doug.38PR]

HA Funny you should mention Massad Ayoob, I just got through reading one of his "no handloads for defense" articles.

How often do you know to change reloading manuels? I mean if powders periodically change...how do you know when your Blow-it-out-your-muzzel or Big Bang reloading manuel is outdated? 2 years? 10 years? 20 years?

 

[Erich]

Well, it depends on whether you're changing loadings. I mean, once you find a loading and find it's safe and works for your needs, you don't need to change it, do you?

I've found loading manuals to be "out there" sometimes - leaving aside the entire Speer # 8 controversy that we beat to death here about 4 years ago, the Speer # 10 had some Blue Dot loadings that were just way too out there for me (had to be pounded out of a couple guns' cylinders, all manner of scary pressure indications at low temps). Like a grown-up, I discontinued use and pulled the bullets. Unsurprisingly, that loading disappeared from the next manual.

But what about the nice, on-the-warm-side-but-not-max-for-the-time loadings that were published in '60s manuals? And used happily for years by thousands before SAAMI realized "ZOMG!That'stoopowerfulfora.38Special!" when they announced their max pressures in the early '70s?

Well, I guess that's a question for a grown-up, too. SAAMI pressures have to take into account every gun that was built in a given caliber, and we all know that the early .38 Special took white-smoke-generating powder. I'm sure that the engineering boys at SAAMI (in consultation with the lawyer types) took that into account when they announced their figures.

Anyhow, when there is a new powder that I want to try out, or a new bullet, well, I might pick up a new manual. A grown-up does his research before he delves into something new. But, Doug, it's all pretty much online at the manufacturers' sites now - and I can only imagine that trend will speed up.

(I know it's OT to the primary discussion here, but I'd just note in Mas' defense that he's urging an abundance of caution with the handload GSR thing. Same as I'd urge for a paying client, and the same advice I gave my little brother. Not advice I take myself, though. )

Edited: I just want to be totally clear that I'm not suggesting that anyone on this thread is in any way being anything other than mature and sensible in his approach to handloading. I salute folks on this thread for their cautious and reasoned approach to the hobby, and to one another's opinions.

 

[alwslate]

Rem. 158gr +PHPs run about 880fps in my 4" md 10. Two loads listed
as standard pressure gave the following in the same gun using a hard
cast 158gr bullet.
3.8grs titegroup=851fps
4.3grs W231=873fps
Both loads could be increased a few tenths safely no doubt but if I
want much more velocity I use one of my 357s.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Exactly, if you have a load that works, aren't going to change any components for some reason, you will never need another manual in your lifetime.

Wanna try a new powder or the latest bullet or just have some throne reading material, get lots of them!

With the advent of the web, you don't need a manual anyway IF you are an experienced reloader. There are plenty of free, qualified, (that's important) data sites out there. ALL of the powder manufacturers have a data site now and that is ALWAYS where I START. (Those words are capitalized for a reason! )

Erich, I respect you and your opinion a BUNCH, but, I feel you are being too lenient on Ayoob. I have read his stuff and he NEVER qualifies his statements as you have. I agree with your wise cautions but his goes another step. It make individuals, encourages them rather, to make decisions according to fear. Fear of the unknown and unproven. I don't respect that at all. He certainly has made a name and money for himself by doing so. It is the American way!

I just would like to hear some balance out of him on this subject.

FWIW

For the OP, the simple answer to your question is: never in some instances. Sorry for opening this can of worms in your thread!

 

[papajohn428]

The quest for velocity is completely moot if you can't put the bullet where you want it. If you want more bullet speed, shoot a 357 at whatever velocity gives you the best mechanical accuracy. The rest is up to you.

I carry a 38 on duty as per local restrictions. I don't feel the load is inadequate, because I practice with my duty gun every chance I get. No bad guy on the planet will know the difference between a 38 and a 357 if it hits hit him in the "Super-Owie Zone".

Shot placement still trumps velocity. Buy or load good ammo, and train with it until you're competent. Period.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

In cases like that you have to do a little detective work for yourself. If the load data tells you the pressures being generated are only 17,200 psi at the max load you know you have some room to add a little powder without exceeding the pressure limits. OR, find an older manual to verify what you are thinking about increasing...

Warning, this is only a suggestion. If you are not comfortable using data that isn't published, don't do it.

Isn't that dangerous? To my understanding, using old data with powders made today (even of the same brand name) is not accurate as the powders have changed over time

I don't think it's dangerous at all but I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I said, "Find an older manual to verify what you are thinking about increasing" it was to verify the pressures you might generate if you went slightly above current data to increase velocity. The older books had different data (read higher) and you can use that data to verify your loads. Remember, I said many current +P loads generate only 17,000 psi and that's not really a +P load. If you increase the powder charge slightly you will still be within SAAMI limits and you can crosscheck your charge and the expected pressures with the older load data.

I thought I made my intent clear in the above posts but it's obvious I didn't. TO REPEAT, Warning, this is only a suggestion. If you are not comfortable using data that isn't CURRENTLY published, don't do it. But you did ask about data that was "not as weak" as the data you are finding in current publications so I gave you a method I feel is safe to generate more velocity, just like you asked...

 

[fredj338]

Okay, it's said that out of a 4 inch barrel, .38 Special +P 158 gr bullets in FACTORY ammo gets you about 890 ft per second.
I checked my reloading manuels, a Speer manuel and a Hornandy manuel.

Hornandy doesn't even have a +P section and none of their powders take you past 850 ft per second.

Speer's maximum for +P is between 905-1037 ft per second. I think the hottest powder listed is Power Pistol (don't see 2400). That sounds pretty impressive....until I saw it was tested with a 6 inch barrel, which would reduce the results out of a 4 inch barrel well below factory ammo. Pretty pathetic....I've always heard reload powders are better than what factory dumps in those cartridges.

I know the manuels say "Maximum means just that, don't go beyond it" and I wouldn't dream of advocating anything dangerous...but...isn't that a little weak?

Without a chronograph, it's all a guess. Revolvers can vary as much as 125fps between diff guns of the same bbl length w/ identical loads. FWIW, the Win 158grLHP+P load makes861fps in my SP101/2 1/4" @ 920fps in my 686/4". Easily done w/ several powders in the Speer data. You are only losing maybe 50fps between 4" & 6" bbl, but diff 4" bbls can easily vary that much.

 

[Paul5388]

It might be well for some to read this article, .38-44 HV: The Original Magnum - revolver round | Guns Magazine | Find Articles, where it implies some .38-44 loads are more accurate than the equivalent .357 Mag load.

Accuracy, they claim, is superior because its high-intensity loads are better balanced to its case configuration.

The .38-44 has been around since about 1930 and I have never heard of one of the loads blowing up any gun and you know they have been used, even if inadvertently, in lesser guns than a .38-44. Just about all of the KABOOMs I've heard about in .38 Special have been using Bullseye and equivalents in supposedly light loads, but were probably double or triple charges.

 

[fredj338]

It might be well for some to read this article, .38-44 HV: The Original Magnum - revolver round | Guns Magazine | Find Articles, where it implies some .38-44 loads are more accurate than the equivalent .357 Mag load.

The .38-44 has been around since about 1930 and I have never heard of one of the loads blowing up any gun and you know they have been used, even if inadvertently, in lesser guns than a .38-44. Just about all of the KABOOMs I've heard about in .38 Special have been using Bullseye and equivalents in supposedly light loads, but were probably double or triple charges.

Big +1. The only issue w/ modern steel guns @ 38sp+P is the brass cases. They will not last long running a steady diet of +P loads.

 

[Erich]

The only issue w/ modern steel guns @ 38sp+P is the brass cases. They will not last long running a steady diet of +P loads.

I've not found that to be the case - my brass lasts absolutely fine at .38 +P pressures. Years and years and reloads and reloads. Overbelling and over-treating are the only things that seem to hurt my .38 brass.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I've not found that to be the case - my brass lasts absolutely fine at .38 +P pressures. Years and years and reloads and reloads. Over belling and over-treating are the only things that seem to hurt my .38 brass.

I agree... I use only properly marked +P brass for my +P loads because I don't want to take the chance of mixing them up and my +P brass shows no more wear than the standard brass which receives only standard pressure loads.

I have been using the same 1,200 pieces of Remington .38 Special brass for the past 6 years without one piece being scrapped. I have been using most of the .38 Special +P marked brass just about as long without any failures.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

If you want "+p" velocities out of a 4", get some unique and a 158 lasercast lead swc. Work your way up to the lasercast maximum of 5 grns of unique.

Yesterday out of a 4" HD that did 969 fps. Out of a 5" hd it die 984 fps. Commerical ammo from the 40's (38 special) did 787 and 803 respectively and that same 5" gun did 887 fps with winchester +p FBI 158 grn load.

Basically a sub +P load of Unique did better than winchesters +p load in the same gun.