38 Special +P

[Cal44]

When did 38 Special+P become standardized and when were guns first released with that designation?

Were there at one time, before +P was introduced, standard 38 Special loads that were as hot as current +P loads? I've heard that said, but is that reality or nostalgia?

 

[Symmetry]

+P started at around 1970 as hollow point ammunition was making an appearance. The FBI started using +P at this time. Hollow points needed a little more velocity to open them up with those early designs in water tank and animal muscle testing. Now days for the FBI standards, the +P helps snub nosed revolvers do well with JHPs in those tests. Now days though, most JHP designs no not need high velocity to expand reliably.

 

[arjay]

The old 38-44 load from way back when was pushing a 158 gr bullet over 1100 fps.I believe these loads first appeared back in the '30s?

 

[Erich]

SAAMI is the sporting arms manufacturers' group in the USA: SAAMI | Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute

The ammo makers have banded together and declared "The following are the specifications that we declare to be appropriate for the .38 Special." http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/C%20and%20C%20Dwgs%20-%20TOC%20-%20Pistol.pdf

In about 1970 (as Symmetry notes) - I think it was actually '72 or '73, but I'd have to go haul out a reloading manual to be sure - SAAMI differentiated between .38 Special and .38 Special +P for the first time. I've talked to someone who was in the business at the time, and he tells me their rationale was to set apart the higher powered .38 ammo from the stuff that was fine for use in ancient .38 Specials (remember, the cartridge started out at the end of the black powder era).

There most certainly were .38 Special loadings in the past that exceed present-day .38 Special loading pressures - and some that exceeded .38 Special +P pressures! I have a few boxes sitting around. The ".38/44" that friend arjay references was a term often used to reference these, but they appeared in the standard .38 Special section of reloading manuals of the day.

Get some older reloading manuals and read up to see what I mean. Read Elmer Keith's Sixguns, too, and Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide to Reloading (available online for free - I've linked to it here before), also.

 

[rwsmith]

If memory serves me right.....

When did 38 Special+P become standardized and when were guns first released with that designation?

Were there at one time, before +P was introduced, standard 38 Special loads that were as hot as current +P loads? I've heard that said, but is that reality or nostalgia?

I don't know the exact date and level of acceptance but it seems about 1972. It was acknowledged that some guns could take about 1500 psi above 'standard' load so the +P designation came to be.

 

[shawn mccarver]

To follow up on what Erich said, the 38/44 of 1929-1930 is FAR hotter than ANY 38 Special +P of today. The 38/44 was approved for use in the Colt D frame (Police Positive and Detective Special) and S&W said the same thing about limited use in its K frame. Flyers included with Combat Masterpiece revolvers sold by Evaluators, Ltd. also said the same thing: that you should use your Combat Masterpiece with standard 38 for most practice and carry 38/44 loads for "combat."

The 38/44 used a 158 grain bullet at 1,150 fps, give or take. The 38 Special +P in the same grain weight is advertised at 890 fps.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X38SPD.aspx

Thus, we all need to stop worrying about +P.

99% of us cannot afford to shoot enough to damage a quality revolver, and if you can, then you can afford to fix it or buy another.

 

[Jaymo]

Where is SaxonPig when we need him?

 

[Muss Muggins]

Anyone ever fired a .38 S&W Special +P+ load . . . ?

 

[Jaymo]

Shot a few rounds of .38 +P+. It was 110 grain, I think.
I didn't notice any more recoil than +P. Probably because the +P ammo I've fired used a heavier bullet.

I've fired 9mm +P+ Hirtenberger 100 grain soft point ammo.
No difference in recoil between it and standard pressure ammo.
Shot quite a bit of it in a Hungarian FEG BHP clone.
No damage nor accelerated wear observed.
Not surprising, since it's not the pressure that causes excessive wear, it's the additional recoil energy, and there was no additional recoil.
The recoil was quite mild.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I imagine the bullet weight makes a big difference. This is what I'm used to, generally from a 2 1/2" Model 66. It had a little bite to it . . .

 

[OKFC05]

Anyone ever fired a .38 S&W Special +P+ load . . . ?

Yes, but in a 686, so it was nothing dramatic.

In fact, I loaded some .38 brass up to near .357 pressures and fired them in the 686 to win a friendly bet. The bet was I would shoot moderate loads and then double charges of HP38 in the same brand .38 brass, mix all the brass together, and he would not be able to visually resort the brass from "pressure signs." I already knew the double charge in .38 was less than the .357 max, and I shot them in a 686. I won at a walk; so much for .38 "pressure signs."

 

[Jaymo]

Yep.The 110s recoil less than the 125s, 147s, and 158s because of bullet weight.
I've not shot the 147 +P+. Would like to find some. Should be good in my 66 2.5", DW 2.something", and my Smith and Ruger 4" .357s.
Ought to be a good one for my 15-5 4".

 

[Jaymo]

Here's pressure signs in a .38.

This is a good time to throttle back those "hot loads".

 

[BAM-BAM]

There are guns that can handle +P and +P+ loads..... but I don't think there are any gun sold as " .38 +P" or .38+P+"..........



Another factor is that in the early 70s a lot of officers and Departments wanted to go to the .357 magnum as the Model 66 was just introduced; but Civilian oversight and the general public ...... felt the .357 was just too powerful and not needed..........

except by State Police/Highway Patrol's who had to shoot through cars and windshields..... to get to Bonnie and Clyde.....

So........Cops wanted more power; hollow-points needed more speed..... Mayors and Commissioners didn't want .357 MAGNUMS (many didn't want hollow points)........ so was born the +P and then the +P+......... and everyone lived happily ever after!!!!!

 

[Muss Muggins]

There are guns that can handle +P and +P+ loads..... but I don't think there are any gun sold as " .38 +P" or .38+P+"..........

I said almost the same thing on another thread and had to apologize after the photographs started to appear. S&W sells more than one new revolver with .38 S&W Spl +P on the barrel. Have yet to see a +P+ marked barrel, though (ducks and covers) . . .

 

[BAM-BAM]

I said almost the same thing on another thread and had to apologize after the photographs started to appear. S&W sells more than one new revolver with .38 S&W Spl +P on the barrel. Have yet to see a +P+ marked barrel, though (ducks and covers) . . .

Must be some of those "newer fangled ones"........... mine stop about 1996/97....."I learns something" everyday around here.......must think about moving into the 21st Century one of these days!!!!!!

LOL and "me thinks" some barrels are marked "Jacketed" or some such!!!!!

 

[ironhead7544]

Anyone ever fired a .38 S&W Special +P+ load . . . ?

It was called the "Treasury load". Around 1200 fps from a 4 inch M66 with a 110 gr HP. It turned a 357 Magnum into a six shot 9mm.

There was little difference in recoil compared to the 110 gr +P load.

I was issued that load and I think I have the box somewhere. Will post a pic if I can find it. We had Winchester and Federal. The Winchester cases were marked +P+. The Federal was marked like a military round with "FC" and the year.

It was rumored that 200 rounds of this load would stretch a J alloy frame 38 Special. This was back in the 80ties.

I am a handloader and noticed the cases were a bit thicker than regular 38 Special. Averaged some 7 grains heavier.

 

[Jaymo]

+P came about when SAAMI castrated all modern cartridges.

Cor-Bon's +P loads tend to run +P+ velocities, like BB and Underwood.
I've carried and used their .38 110 grain +P for many years.
It's like a 9mm, with a better bullet design.

 

[TucsonMTB]

Here's pressure signs in a .38.

This is a good time to throttle back those "hot loads".

Now that's funny!

Okay, I might have bizarre sense of humor.

 

[Jaymo]

It's the most reliable visual indicator of excessive pressure in a revolver.
Not my gun. grabbed a pic from a Google search for .38 kaboom.
Think that'll buff out?