.38 Special: Winchester +P vs. Buffalo Bore

[TheTinMan]

After reading mostly rave reviews of the Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWC HP ammo, I finally found some on a shelf today and bought it. The box says "low flash", not +P and "short barrel".

I've been carrying Winchester 158gr +P LSWC HP in my Model 642 for years, so I wanted to compare the two. I was expecting less flash and less recoil from the Buffalo Bore but got the exact opposite. As a result, follow up shots seemed more accurate with the Winchester ammo. Is my experience consistent with others?

Also, has anyone compared the ballistics and performance of these two cartridges? Please forgive me, but there are SO many threads here that mention "Buffalo Bore" that it's impossible to filter through them.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[photoman]

My experience with Buffalo Bore 158gr loads, standard pressure and for darn sure +P, is that they kick like a mule! Simple physics tell you that a 158gr slug going an honest 850fps (for the standard pressure load) is going to be unpleasant in an Airweight.

They are now selling a 110gr load with the Barnes X bullet that is much more "shootable" in Airweight guns and I found it to be very accurate.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Compare the softness of the lead used in your Win load v. the BBA load. Federal, Remington and Winchester use soft lead (low or no antimony mix). My understanding is that BBA uses a harder lead/antimony swagged bullet.

LHP loads by Rem, Fed & Win have all been used in actual shootings with good results. Has BBA been street proven yet? Has anyone seen how well BBA's LHP loads have expanded (or not) in real humans?

There's no way in Hades that I would use BBA's unproven ammo for SD. IMO, stick with what has been proven to work in the past and pass on the unproven boutique loads.

 

[badge 851]

Everyone's experience is different I guess. I have been carrying and shooting the Buffalo Bore® 38 Special 158gr LSWCHCGC Standard Pressure load for the last 5 years. I shoot it in my 15oz Airweight® Mdl 37, and my 16oz Taurus® Ultra-Lite® Mdl 85SS2UL. I have no problems with recoil from this load. It is very accurate in both guns.

The Buffalo Bore® 38 Special 158gr LSWCHCGC +P I only shoot in my steel frame 38's & 357 Magnums.

As for the 158gr LSWCHCGC bullet Buffalo Bore® uses, it has a BHN of 5; see here please..........
• http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catal..._id=74&zenid=5587f7a19bde0f146cf0e4a9c50090fc

 

[ArchAngelCD]

While I really have nothing against BB ammo I'm also not a fan. I feel it's too expensive and I can't believe they get the velocities they do without exceeding the SAAMI pressure limits. Nothing is free and that holds especially true when it comes to natural laws like those in Physics.

 

[Dragon88]

Here's a Youtube video by tnoutdoors9 of this load performing in ballistic gelatin.

Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semiwadcutter Ammo Test - YouTube

 

[badge 851]

In all my years on the job, and in the military; I've never met anyone who wears four layers of denim - just sayin'.

 

[Hapworth]

LHP loads by Rem, Fed & Win have all been used in actual shootings with good results. Has BBA been street proven yet? Has anyone seen how well BBA's LHP loads have expanded (or not) in real humans?

There's no way in Hades that I would use BBA's unproven ammo for SD. IMO, stick with what has been proven to work in the past and pass on the unproven boutique loads.

Fair point, but all proven loads (including your favorites) began as untested rounds that only in theory would do the job because they posted the right numbers in ballistic tests.

Point being, by your criteria, the FBI load (or any proven round) would never have come to the fore.

 

[pete950]

Ain't no magic bullets.

If it punches holes in flesh deep enough and is put in the right spot it'll get the job done no matter what the "Moniker" on the box.

Carry what you shoot the best in your particular gun and let the debaters debate...

MOONDAWG
Very well put!!!!!!

 

[Pigirondan]

I start with the BB 150 grain wadcutter in my 638 and have the standard pressure 158 LSWC-HP in the speed loaders. For my Model 10 & Model 15 I carry the 158 grain +P Outdoorsman.

 

[ryanjames170]

In all my years on the job, and in the military; I've never met anyone who wears four layers of denim - just sayin'.

i think Tn9 dose it because its the Standard test protocol.. but i will say living in WI i can tell u there are some people who come dam close to wearing that amount of clothing in the winter time.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Ain't no magic bullets.

If it punches holes in flesh deep enough and is put in the right spot it'll get the job done no matter what the "Moniker" on the box.

Carry what you shoot the best in your particular gun and let the debaters debate...

That's a very poor bullet selection process. We know from the past that FMJ/solid bullets "punch holes in flesh deep enough", and we know that such bullets are poor stoppers and dangerously overpenetrate humans. A LHP that fails to expand and overpenetrates is no better than the old lead SWC and RN "Widowmakers".

 

[badge 851]

I'm with my brother in blue on this one; I agree 100% with Moondawg. Far more import than what you shoot; IS HOW YOU SHOOT.

 

[APS]

That's a very poor bullet selection process.

I don't think that he is advocating FMJ. Though I do believe he has his mind properly wrapped around the truth behind "stopping power".

 

[TheTinMan]

Guys - we got off track here. I fully understand the importance of accurate shot placement. That is exactly why i asked my questions about 2 specific cartridges. Neither of them is a "bad" choice for self defense.

I was surprised by the Buffalo Bore ammo in my 642. It seemed to produce more flash, more bang, and more recoil despite being labelled "NOT +P". None of those attributes are positive in terms of most accurate shot placement.

I'll have to shoot some of each over a chronograph. Unfortunately, at $1 a piece I'm not firing a whole box of 20 Buffalo Bore rounds just to clock their speed.

I'll also look over on the reloading forum for info on bullet and powder selection for 158gr HP LSWC.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[TheTinMan]

....expanding, mushrooming, broccoling or carrotting doesn't mean a thing besides making pretty pictures if it doesn't hit something vital enough to "make a stop" possible.

I'm all for technological advances, but there ain't any magic bullets.

If there were, all the law enforcement agencies would be using them and the other ammo companies would be out of business.

And BTW, least we forget, our military has a pretty could track record being limited to FMJ ammo...

Since you insist on going off track, I will argue that the military's requirement to use FMJ bullets has contributed to the poor reputation of Nato 5.56. Choice of bullet weight also is a factor.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

That's a very poor bullet selection process. We know from the past that FMJ/solid bullets "punch holes in flesh deep enough", and we know that such bullets are poor stoppers and dangerously overpenetrate humans. A LHP that fails to expand and overpenetrates is no better than the old lead SWC and RN "Widowmakers".

Almost any hollowpoint will "plug up" when fired through four layers of denim. Light (125 grain) bullet JHP .357 Magnum rounds at over 1400 fps usually do expand even when fired through multiple layers of denim IME. The odds of me needing to shoot through so many layers with a .38 here in Oklahoma are slim. This is a good load for my backup Model 37. Without all the denim, it expands and penetrates over 12 inches.

ECS

 

[ArchAngelCD]

i think Tn9 dose it because its the Standard test protocol.. but i will say living in WI i can tell u there are some people who come dam close to wearing that amount of clothing in the winter time.

Then just shootim' in the face! Just sayin' too...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

A LHP that fails to expand and overpenetrates is no better than the old lead SWC and RN "Widowmakers".

While I agree the LRN bullet is a poor choice and it was nicknamed the widdow-maker the LSWC is not in the same category. The sharp shoulder of the SWC is proven to cut flesh very well and create a very well defined wound cavity. That's why it's recommended for hunting.

 

[baccusboy]

I would only purchase Buffalo Bore if off of the shelf, where I can see exactly what bullet I am getting. Their velocities are up to claims, but not their bullets, in the Speer Gold Dot varieties. The web is well-documented with cases of Montana Gold bullets being used for rounds sold via their website when photos of Gold Dots were shown. Buyer beware. Montana Gold is a good bullet for reloaders shooting targets, but an extremely poor expander.

Just be sure you get what you expected. Especially in such a premium-price round.

Everyone should look into Underwood ammo for a good low-price alternative that is every bit as hot. They offer your choice of Speer Gold Dot or Golden Saber.