joespapa
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Who still manufactures the old NYPD load, 158 grain LSWC ? Great self defense load for airweights.
38 Special
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tcc
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Here is a link on Ammo To Go for the Federal version of the FBI Load for only $24.95. (the were only 19.95 last month) They also have a 500 round lot for sale... They used to have the Remington offering but they seem ot be out of them right now. (although they were a lot more)
chief38
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To the best of my knowledge, Remington, Winchester and Federal still make the load you'e interested in. The reason they are not readily available in the LGS's is that they are now known as poor performers for SD as compared to today's high tech loads.
The BEST NON +P load you will find (IMHO) is the 158 grain NON +P LSWCHP from Buffalo Bore. It is loaded to standard pressures, however it packs 860 ft. per sec. of velocity from a 2" barrel - which is well over 70 feet per second faster than the "Big 3" ammo makers +P loading's in 158 grain.
Chief38
The BEST NON +P load you will find (IMHO) is the 158 grain NON +P LSWCHP from Buffalo Bore. It is loaded to standard pressures, however it packs 860 ft. per sec. of velocity from a 2" barrel - which is well over 70 feet per second faster than the "Big 3" ammo makers +P loading's in 158 grain.
Chief38
badge 851
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That's a great load and what I carry in my 38 Special snubbies.
Do a Google Search on the Buffalo Bore .38 loads with a 4 layer denim/calibrated ballistic gel test. They BOTH failed MISERABLY. Neither one opened up. The lead is definitely too hard. It's a loser, IMO. The Corbon 110 gr. DPX & Speer 135 gr. +p are far better loads.
Texas Star
US Veteran
It remains that most major departments that used the Plus P lead HP were satisfied. These included Dallas, Miami-Dade, Chicago (pardon my swearing, ha, ha!), and the RCMP.
When the last abandoned their long-used Model 10's for the S&W DA- only 9mm auto, they weren't looking for greater power; just comparable performance.
We have a member here who was on the Richardson, TX police dept. for years. That's a Dallas suburb, and he had knowledge of how the load worked, also the 145 grain .357 Silvertip. He posted here recently that both killed a lot of felons.
Beware of the Federal version offered by some mail order firms. Some of that wasn't crimped and the bullets may creep forward on recoil. That is a shocking error from a major manufactuer! When properly crimped,that load has shot very well for me and I've carried it with confidence. But I never shot anything alive with it.
A friend did hit a javelina/peccary "behind the shoulder" with it, from a M-64 and it took several shots to kill the pig. It seems to work better on humans, and I suspect that my pal was hitting lung tissue, not solid enough to open the bullet. A bullet in the heart or spine would have probably fared much better. I really think a .357 Magnum was more in order for hunting javelina, but he used what he had, his car gun. The invitation to hunt came unexpectedly while he was on a business trip.
I think the reason the ammo isn't more available is that most people don't know about it and don't ask for it. Also, it's relatively low tech, and the manufacturers can charge more for fancy JHP bullets.
When the last abandoned their long-used Model 10's for the S&W DA- only 9mm auto, they weren't looking for greater power; just comparable performance.
We have a member here who was on the Richardson, TX police dept. for years. That's a Dallas suburb, and he had knowledge of how the load worked, also the 145 grain .357 Silvertip. He posted here recently that both killed a lot of felons.
Beware of the Federal version offered by some mail order firms. Some of that wasn't crimped and the bullets may creep forward on recoil. That is a shocking error from a major manufactuer! When properly crimped,that load has shot very well for me and I've carried it with confidence. But I never shot anything alive with it.
A friend did hit a javelina/peccary "behind the shoulder" with it, from a M-64 and it took several shots to kill the pig. It seems to work better on humans, and I suspect that my pal was hitting lung tissue, not solid enough to open the bullet. A bullet in the heart or spine would have probably fared much better. I really think a .357 Magnum was more in order for hunting javelina, but he used what he had, his car gun. The invitation to hunt came unexpectedly while he was on a business trip.
I think the reason the ammo isn't more available is that most people don't know about it and don't ask for it. Also, it's relatively low tech, and the manufacturers can charge more for fancy JHP bullets.
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badge 851
US Veteran
While that may be true in a particular test, I have not found it to be a handicap. A hell of a lot of felons have been removed from the gene pool by LSWC bullets that often did not expand. I certainly have confidence with the Metro, Dallas, Chicago, insert-your-city-here load. In all my almost 41 years of carrying a 38 Special, both on and off the job; I have yet to see any one wear four layers of denim.
I have no doubt that the Corbon® and Speer® loads you cite are great rounds. I prefer to stick with what I know. There is a lot to be said for the "Old Ways, from the Old Days, in the Right Way".
I will try the both of the loads you suggested (because of the good things you and others have said about them.)
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chief38
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Boge:
The following is just my personal opinion:
I am much more concerned about a bullet's ability to reach a vital organ by adequately penetrating than weather or not it expands. I do not accept that a bullet "fails miserably" because it has not expanded much. Every Military round fired is a NON EXPANDING copper jacketed bullet and there are plenty of dead bodies to prove it works just fine. The .45 ACP FMJ is a highly regarded "man stopper" and there is ZERO expansion there.
It is also my opinion that weather a .38 caliber bullets final dimensions are .357" or .365" .390" or .400" etc. bullet placement and penetration are the crux of the issue, and not expansion. Relatively speaking, the bullets that consistently expand to large sizes are usually the same ones that are of lighter weights and poor penetrators. Think about it...... a .357" bullet that expands to .400" has expanded .043" of an inch or about 1/24 of an inch which is negligible in the real world of ballistics.
The old Police load (158 grain RNL standard velocity bullet) is a poor man stopper mainly because it had a tendency to over penetrate and drill a nice clean hole due to its pointed nose and shape, but the 158 grain LSWCHP bullet has for the most part solved that problem. It would be very nice to have the "perfect bullet" that incorporates 14" penetration with controlled and reliable 200% expansion 100% of the time, but until that perfection is achieved, I for one will lean toward adequate penetration of a heavier bullet before compromising it for expansion of a lighter less penetrating bullet.
Chief38
The following is just my personal opinion:
I am much more concerned about a bullet's ability to reach a vital organ by adequately penetrating than weather or not it expands. I do not accept that a bullet "fails miserably" because it has not expanded much. Every Military round fired is a NON EXPANDING copper jacketed bullet and there are plenty of dead bodies to prove it works just fine. The .45 ACP FMJ is a highly regarded "man stopper" and there is ZERO expansion there.
It is also my opinion that weather a .38 caliber bullets final dimensions are .357" or .365" .390" or .400" etc. bullet placement and penetration are the crux of the issue, and not expansion. Relatively speaking, the bullets that consistently expand to large sizes are usually the same ones that are of lighter weights and poor penetrators. Think about it...... a .357" bullet that expands to .400" has expanded .043" of an inch or about 1/24 of an inch which is negligible in the real world of ballistics.
The old Police load (158 grain RNL standard velocity bullet) is a poor man stopper mainly because it had a tendency to over penetrate and drill a nice clean hole due to its pointed nose and shape, but the 158 grain LSWCHP bullet has for the most part solved that problem. It would be very nice to have the "perfect bullet" that incorporates 14" penetration with controlled and reliable 200% expansion 100% of the time, but until that perfection is achieved, I for one will lean toward adequate penetration of a heavier bullet before compromising it for expansion of a lighter less penetrating bullet.
Chief38
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Texas Star, I have a case (1000rnds) of that Federal .38spl +P 158gr swchp. I just set my seater die for a firm but not excessive crimp and ran them through.
So, why is a non-expanding RN bullet that is 0.451" that much better than one of 0.357" diameter? The body can discern 0.094" difference? The .45 ACP as a ball round is surrounded by a lot of myth & lore that has been passed on as "fact". The truth be told, .45 ACP ball ammo was not a great "manstopper". Neither was the .38 RNL. Before modern HP's people had to be shot countless times or in the CNS to incapacitate them. Today, modern HP's have given us better stopping power and velocity does help. I'd rather be shot with a 40 gr. .22 LR than a .40 gr. bullet from a .220 Swift.
Old stuff sometimes worked. So did a Brown Bess musket. Today we simply have better choices and for me that includes a state of the art HP as I want all the odds stacked in my favor.
chief38
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Boge,
I never said (in fact quite the contrary) that the .38 Special RNL was a good man-stopper. I do believe that the .45 acp 230 grain is, along with a lot of US soldiers. Remember, not only is the diameter larger than the .357" but the WEIGHT is quite a bit more. Expansion does not increase weight.
I guess to each his own......
Chief38
I never said (in fact quite the contrary) that the .38 Special RNL was a good man-stopper. I do believe that the .45 acp 230 grain is, along with a lot of US soldiers. Remember, not only is the diameter larger than the .357" but the WEIGHT is quite a bit more. Expansion does not increase weight.
I guess to each his own......
Chief38
Chief, many peoples' ideas are formulated by what they read & hear and not what they have seen or know to be true. There are more stories out there where the .45 ACP with ball ammo did not strop someone right away. I often tell the story of one of my best friends who shot a a cat on his farm broadside with 230 gr. ball ammo. The cat still lives. The don't all "fall to hardball". That's usually just so much BS being told in the Legion Hall over a Miller High Life. I'd take a 9mm loaded with +p or +p+ HP's every time over a 1911 loaded with hardball.
Not to beat a dead horse but to say that the LHP plus P is a poor stopper is inaccurate. It was carried by many large Police Depts as well as the FBI and has a very good record. Is it the best now? No,... it's old technology but still a good load to use.
AZretired
Member
I agree that the +P LSWCHP is still a good round, but I do find it hard to believe that any load pushing a 158 Gr. Bullet at 860 fps in a 2 inch barrel would not be rated as a +P.
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chief38
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AZretired:
Go to Buffalo Bore's website and look at the spec's. If you are still in doubt or disbelief, buy a box or two and chronograph them as I and many others have. You will soon see that his claims are NOT hype and his brand of ammo does exactly what he says it will do. While I do not own the equipment to test CUP's as SAMMI does, I truly believe that in all the years of these Buffalo Bore loads being available if they were not within the SAMMI spec's as stated, someone would have either sued, discredited or complained of false advertising and damages. This simply has not happened.
Tim Sundles (owner of BB) has a truly amazing product line and like I have stated before, Buffalo Bore Ammo is the ONLY ammo I have ever personally chronographed to do exactly as claimed or BETTER!!!
IMHO the "Big Three" ammo makers are more concerned about lawyers and product liability than they are about producing a really good product. They could have done what Buffalo Bore has done, but they simply chose not to. I was not a believer until I tried this stuff for myself. Now it has become my ONLY carry ammo in 38 Special & .357.
Regards,
Chief38
Go to Buffalo Bore's website and look at the spec's. If you are still in doubt or disbelief, buy a box or two and chronograph them as I and many others have. You will soon see that his claims are NOT hype and his brand of ammo does exactly what he says it will do. While I do not own the equipment to test CUP's as SAMMI does, I truly believe that in all the years of these Buffalo Bore loads being available if they were not within the SAMMI spec's as stated, someone would have either sued, discredited or complained of false advertising and damages. This simply has not happened.
Tim Sundles (owner of BB) has a truly amazing product line and like I have stated before, Buffalo Bore Ammo is the ONLY ammo I have ever personally chronographed to do exactly as claimed or BETTER!!!
IMHO the "Big Three" ammo makers are more concerned about lawyers and product liability than they are about producing a really good product. They could have done what Buffalo Bore has done, but they simply chose not to. I was not a believer until I tried this stuff for myself. Now it has become my ONLY carry ammo in 38 Special & .357.
Regards,
Chief38
I see that Cheaper Than Dirt is carrying the Remington R38S12 .38 Spec +P 158 gr LSWHP for $32.36/50 rounds. Georgia Arms has their 38 Spec +P 158 gr LSWHP for $11.50/50 rounds. Does anyone know how the two compare? The Remington load has a very good reputation. If the GA stuff is just as good, I'd take it at half the price.
Vern
Vern
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Bullet penetration is NOT the Be-All-End-All of SD bullets. It is fact that deep penetrating non-expanding bullets are the worst types of bullets to use, no matter what service caliber you use.
The 38Spl 158SWC is only marginally better than LRN or FMJ, which have dismal records when it comes to incapacitating and stopping determined and homicidal attackers.
I don't disagree that solid and FMJ bullets have killed many people in the past (and will so in the future), but the object of lawfully carrying a firearm and using proper SD ammo is NOT to KILL one's attacker, but to IMMEDIATELY INCAPACITATE AND STOP the attacker(s).
The military use of non-expanding FMJ ammo is directed by the Hague Accords of 1899. And the primary object of banning expanding "Dum-Dum" bullets was to reduce the amount of deaths of uniformed soldiers. The use of FMJ bullets was to injure soldiers and force the militaries to use more manpower and resources in treating the wounded.
Solid non-expanding bullets have a tract record of failures. Not only that, but said solid deep penetrating bullets along with poorly constructed JHP's, also have a record of overpenetrating the human body and going on to maim and kill innocent people.
And on the other hand, lighter and mid-weight and medium penetrating bullets; such as the 9mm 115JHP+P+, 357Mag 125JHP and 40S&W 155JHP, have a proven tract record of stopping attackers very quickly (and often perminently). Yet these bullets rarely achieve more than 12" in ballistic gel.
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badge 851
US Veteran
That is true for me also in both calibers. Buffalo Bore® ammunition lives up to all it's claims. They produce QUALITY AMMUNITION. I carry it with confidence, and highly recommend it.
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Double Tap also makes good reliable ammo but at less a cost.
Edmo
US Veteran
Here is a ballistics test of the Buff Bore 158 grain LSWC...
Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semiwadcutter Ammo Test - YouTube
Now, here is what I would carry...
Speer Gold Dot .38 Special +P 135 gr Ammo Test - YouTube
Edmo
Darkenfast
Member
The late Stephen A. Camp (whose writings I greatly respect), tested the GA +P 158 gr. SWCHP. He noted that it seemed to use a slightly harder bullet, and felt that it might not be the best choice for a snub because of the lower velocities from those barrels. Other than that it performed well. Overall he felt that that the +P SWCHP type of .38 was fine for self defense.
His site is still being maintained since his passing, and these are only some of his articles about the .38:
General article about the .38 for defense:
The
Article about the LSWCHP:
New Page 2
Post on Handguns and Ammunition forum re the Georgia Arms +P. I may have seen this here on the S&W forum someplace, but I'm headed for bed! Hope this helps!
Georgia Arms .38 Special 158-gr. LHP +P - Handguns and Ammunition Forums
PeterCartwright
Member
Stu Honea
Member
Agreed.I absolutely love the 135gr.+P Gold Dot in my Kframe snubs,but the LSWCHP certainly hasn't gotten any worse than it once was,and we saw a lot of people crumble to it even from snubs,expansion or not. Cheap enough to stock a decent supply,too.
Texas Star
US Veteran
In the Gold Dot video, the narrator fails to note that the 945 FPS quoted by CCI/Speer for their 125 grain load is for a vented four-inch barrel, but the 135 grainer is quoted at 860 FPS for a TWO-INCH gun. That may be significant. Both loads have good reps.
I havent fired any 135 grainers yet (can't find them) but the 125 is extremely accurate in my M-60-4. The little gun thinks it's a target revolver with that load!
But if I might have to kill big animals, including feral dogs, let alone a bear or cougar, I'd use the 158 grain lead SWC-HP, probably in Buffalo Bore, if available. But I'd prefer a heavier caliber, too.
