38 Spl +P W231 158 gr RNL

[38SPL HV]

I was previously having problems with Remington 1 1/2 primers piercing using +P loads and 158 gr SWCs. The following was chronographed last week and there has been no piercing of the primers after 100 + rounds and the load is accurate for me:

Firearm: Ruger 4 5/8 inch Blackhawk
38 Spl +P
158 gr Lyman 358311 RNL (Lyman 2) (Maplewood Bullets)
Load - 4.5 grs W231
Remington 1 1/2 primer
Crimped in groove
Hi 911
Lo 866
Avg 887
ES 45
SD 11

Low end of the 38 Spl +P spectrum but I’ll take its balance of power and accuracy. It pretty much equals the tested velocities of both Federal and Winchester 38 Spl +P lead loads out of my revolver.

It is unfortunate that even published load data may result in Remington 1 1/2 primers piercing even within standard pressures (Lyman). Remington has no excuse particularly when CCI 500 primers never pierced in my 45 yrs using CCI’s.

These are my loads for use in my revolver only. Always refer to current published load data, it’s instructions and all applicable information first before reloading. I used load data from Speer, Lyman and Handloader Magazine.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Remington primers confuse me. For example, they have a 6 1/2 small rifle primer but it is only suggests for use in the 22 Hornet. Most reloaders will use them as a magnum handgun primer. Their 7 1/2 primers are called benchrest primers but are really the only usable SRP in their line. (very good in the .223 Rem ammo in an AR style rifle)

Their 1 1/2 primers are listed as SPP but so are their 5 1/2 primers which are suitable for the 9mm, 357 Sig and the like. They are sort of a magnum primer but no mention of that. They are both just labeled SPP

So like I said, Remington primers are confusing. I only use their 7 1/2 SRP primers when other are not available. I prefer CCI or Winchester primers in that order.

 

[DGNY]

Appreciation to the OP, for posting his very readable results of experiments with variety of components in 38 special. Very useful round.

We understand that these are his results. And that we, if following up personally, are responsible for our own actions/results and for the safety of all procedures, use of components and the firearms in which employed.

 

[gwpercle]

I remember having the same problem with Alcan Small Pistol Primers .
Standard pressure 38 Spcl loads and lots of pierced primers .
They were brass in color and the cups seemed too thin ...
Be on the look out for them ... Alcan ... stocks of older primers tend to get pulled out and pressed into service during times of shortage !
I still have a few boxes of primers and two cans of Alcan #5 powder that get used in emergency situations .
Momma always said ... " Waste Not - Want Not ! "
Gary

 

[boatbum101]

Rem 1 1/2's have been limited to 21K psi or less for some time . For that reason I've always used Win or Fed SP primers . Ditto on the CCI 400's .

 

[Nevada Ed]

Rem 1 1/2's have been limited to 21K psi or less for some time . For that reason I've always used Win or Fed SP primers . Ditto on the CCI 400's .

I was going to tell you to check your firing pin surface,
but after seeing that they are only rated to 21k psi
I can see where they might be a little too thin in material?

They make the federal primer look like a "Magnum" type primer.

 

[alwslate]

Nice load but I don't think your 4.5 grs of 231 will exceed the 17,000 psi limit for standard pressure.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Hodgdons only gets 807fps with more (HP38) powder and out of a 7.7" barrel using a 158grXTP...

Something just doesn't seem right?

Cheers!

 

[rockquarry]

Nice load but I don't think your 4.5 grs of 231 will exceed the 17,000 psi limit for standard pressure.

Not an argument, but I think it depends on whose data you look at.

 

[38SPL HV]

Hodgdons only gets 807fps with more (HP38) powder and out of a 7.7" barrel using a 158grXTP...

Something just doesn't seem right?

Cheers!

That data is with a jacketed bullet…for those in the know as most on this site, cast bullets have markedly increase in velocity over jacketed ones of the same weight…learned this over chronographs and published load data decades ago.

I take my testing very seriously

 

[STORMINORMAN]

That data is with a jacketed bullet…for those in the know as most on this site, cast bullets have markedly increase in velocity over jacketed ones of the same weight…learned this over chronographs and published load data decades ago.

I take my testing very seriously

I wasn't critiquing your testing...

Just wondered if the "markedly increase in velocity" of almost 10% vs. the case of the jacketed bullet and a significantly(?) longer barrel seems reasonable?

At least as for "those in the know", ("as most on this site") are concerned...

Cheers!

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

I wasn't critiquing your testing...

Just wondered if the "markedly increase in velocity" of almost 10% in the case of the longer barrel seems reasonable?

At least for "those in the know", ("as most on this site") are concerned...

Cheers!

I’m not “in the know” but jacketed bullets get a fair bit more friction going down the bore than cast lead bullets.

When slugging a bore for groove diameter, the practice is to use a soft lead slug and manually drive it down the bore tapping it with a wooden dowel. I can’t imagine doing the same procedure with a jacketed bullet. It would take a lot more effort.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Those figures are in my ball park with my 6" 686 with Federal 100 primers.

In my 6" tube, w231 will get up to 948fps with most loading data, in 38 spl cases.

 

[alwslate]

Not an argument, but I think it depends on whose data you look at.

As far as I have been able to determine over many years of handloading, data source has no effect on velocity or pressure

 

[rockquarry]

As far as I have been able to determine over many years of handloading, data source has no effect on velocity or pressure

Different operators, different pressure equipment, different specs on barrels and equipment, different chronographs, and other changeable factors all have varying effects on pressure and velocity readings even if the readings from two different sources were identical (unlikely) when published. Also, much of the older data was not pressure tested.

 

[alwslate]

Actual 231 data from Winchester says 4.7 grs with a 158 gr swaged bullet is at 17,100 psi. Lyman says +P with a 160 gr cast RN is maybe half way between std and +P at 5.2 grs. But why so much paranoia over loading the .38 spl? Std max is 17,000 psi. +P max is 20,000 psi. And we now know that model marked K frames have the same cyls as model 19s which are good for the 35,000 psi .357? So why the endless fretting over loads in the 15,000 psi range and whether a tenth or two of powder might cause the dreaded OVER MAXIMUM

 

[Nevada Ed]

Actual 231 data from Winchester says 4.7 grs with a 158 gr swaged bullet is at 17,100 psi. Lyman says +P with a 160 gr cast RN is maybe half way between std and +P at 5.2 grs. But why so much paranoia over loading the .38 spl? Std max is 17,000 psi. +P max is 20,000 psi. And we now know that model marked K frames have the same cyls as model 19s which are good for the 35,000 psi .357? So why the endless fretting over loads in the 15,000 psi range and whether a tenth or two of powder might cause the dreaded OVER MAXIMUM

All nice to know but is this K frame ammo safe in a J frame cylinder?
I try not to load my J frame to 20k, if possible............ even though I think that some of the new +P ammo is near 18,500, but I have no way of testing this.

 

[alwslate]

All nice to know but is this K frame ammo safe in a J frame cylinder?
I try not to load my J frame to 20k, if possible............ even though I think that some of the new +P ammo is near 18,500, but I have no way of testing this.

Don't know, don't care.Some think the J frame cyls are actually stronger than K frames and now we have J frame .357s. The endless discussion about safe loads for the lowly .38 spl all seem to focus on the K frames. I keep all of my .38 spl loads within +P pressures whether for my J,K or two N frames because I have several .357s, all N frames. That's how I do it. Do what makes you happy.

 

[alwslate]

For those who might like some very good pressure tested load data of the .38 spl in real guns I recommend back issue,of Handloader magazine Oct 2016, #304. Another one of many excellent articles from Brian Pearce that has std. +P and 38/44 data in different revolvers.

 

[38SPL HV]

Bottom line everyone, use current published load data and follow their instructions rather than to rely on hyperboles expressed by less informed sources.

I only provide my data for informational purposes only and never suggest or recommend their use. These are my loads for my guns only.

Some claim that they’re within pressure limits of a given cartridge when in fact their velocities may suggest otherwise. As many of us are aware, there are more variables than just bullet weight and powder charge when determining if your load is within the manual’s psi limits. Those who claim that they’re within the manuals psi limits by using just bullet weight and powder charge figures may in fact be over through use of different primers, other bullets as the one prescribed, different OALs, etc.

Enough of my rant. I also think I’m done posting my chronograph data at this point and want to thank those very much who have appreciated my efforts through the years.