38 vs 357 - risk factors

[3rdgeargrndrr]

I couldnt get winchester pdx to expand.they passed right through my test media. Federal hst always expand. Critical defense ditto. Out of the 638.
Try to test any ammo you have and make your own conclusions

 

[t0073]

Thank you all for the excellent replies. My 38 is steel, but for some reason is not labeled for +P, which I think S&W confirmed. In any event, I would rather be cautious. The consensus would imply I need to spend a lot more time at the range, and that the 640 with 38+P is the sweet spot. Further perspectives are of course most welcome.

 

[DonD]

I'm no fan of a basic non +P 38 Special, marginally adequate in my view. I carry Hornady Critical Duty +P in 9mm or a hot .357 for CCW. Having said that I don't believe a single poster touched on one basic issue.

There have been endless discussions of overpenetration in defensive shoots. I have yet to see a documented case of overpenetration wounding or killing someone on the other side of the assailant. I don't want to hear "my best friend said...blah, blah, blah. Show me a police report or court case.

Other posters have touched on a far bigger issue, misses, an issue for someone who has never been there defending themselves and under great stress. Trust me, this isn't chest thumping, I've never been anywhere near any encounter and hope I never am.

That's a major reason I won't carry in a busy public facility like Walmart or a large grocery store. Your assailant might be moving and innocents will be scattering everywhere, nightmare scenario. Don

 

[ContinentalOp]

There have been endless discussions of overpenetration in defensive shoots. I have yet to see a documented case of overpenetration wounding or killing someone on the other side of the assailant. I don't want to hear "my best friend said...blah, blah, blah. Show me a police report or court case.

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com

According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full-metal-jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects.

In that same period, officers in the Transit Bureau, who already used the hollow points, struck six bystanders. Four of them were hit directly, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another was hit by a bullet that passed through an object.

In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by police gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed though other people. Of the four officers struck by hollow-point bullets, three were hit directly and one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.

*Bolding by me.

 

[Kframerbluvr]

Firing a .357 round in any sort of enclosed area, especially from a snub, is something I would prefer to avoid. I no longer own anything chambered in .357. All of my HD/CC revolvers are loaded either with 158 grain LHP +P (all of my '70s era .38s) or 135 grain Speer Gold Dot +P ( 442-2 bought new in 2013).

 

[DonD]

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com



*Bolding by me.

Thanks, Continental for providing actual data. Doesn't bother me to be proven wrong.

It won't, however, change what I carry. I carry what I consider the most effective round on the market, hoping that I never need one. Don

 

[Neumann]

There's no guarantee that a bullet will not pass completely through your assailant. That's why you need to be aware of the background. Shoot high, shoot kneeling, most of all learn to move and shoot. The last is easier than you might think, and makes you a more difficult target.

A snubbie doesn't have .357 ballistics. By what measure? It's pretty obvious to me that .357 M from a 3" revolver has more thump than a .38 SPL. Maybe it's 900 fps instead of 1200, but a .38 would be pressed to top 600 fps. Can I control it for a fast followup? You bet. It's even a little exciting to see the sights silhouetted against a wall of orange flame.

 

[cmj8591]

What's beyond your target and where your bullet is going to end up are two of the many factors that you must reconcile in that instant before you pull the trigger. Regardless of the threat, you are responsible for where every bullet ends up.

 

[Hapworth]

Firing a .357 round in any sort of enclosed area, especially from a snub, is something I would prefer to avoid. I no longer own anything chambered in .357. All of my HD/CC revolvers are loaded either with 158 grain LHP +P (all of my '70s era .38s) or 135 grain Speer Gold Dot +P ( 442-2 bought new in 2013).

Excellent defensive loads, and agreed on .357 if it's full house, but there are many excellent defensive .357 loads out there now that are well controlled for flash, bang and recoil, while still providing more punch (and likelihood of expansion) than 38+P.

 

[t0073]

Dear Mr Hapworth,
What would you recommend in 357 that is "well controlled for flash, bang, and recoil"? Thank you!

 

[John Rus]

Speer gold dot .357 mag short barrel ammo is one of the best (There is slow motion footage of this round and it's very impresive!) and its supposed to be a little milder than a full house magnum loading.

The bottom line is a really light kicking .357 mag is just a moderate loading and apart from switching to a slower powder there's not much anyone can do about getting less recoil for the same bullet energy. If you carry a mid-sized 3" or 4" barreled gun then you can get less recoil, flash, better performance and the whole 9 yards but its not quite as convenient as a 2" barreled J frame.

John.

 

[BigBill]

I don't mind the little more kick with the 357magnum when your life is on the line you won't even notice it. In my beginning with the 357 magnum revolvers I tested from 125gr JHP @ 1597ft.ps. And up to the 158gr JHP's too. I was impressed with the accuracy with the 140gr JHP Speer bullets using 2400 powder.

 

[Hapworth]

Dear Mr Hapworth,
What would you recommend in 357 that is "well controlled for flash, bang, and recoil"? Thank you!

I personally like Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, and CorBon DPX; honorable mention to Hornady's Critical Duty and Critical Defense.

 

[BE Mike]

What's beyond your target and where your bullet is going to end up are two of the many factors that you must reconcile in that instant before you pull the trigger. Regardless of the threat, you are responsible for where every bullet ends up.

This is a nice thought and should be adhered to on the range or while hunting. I don't think that it is practical advice in a defensive shooting, except in the movies.

 

[Hapworth]

This is a nice thought and should be adhered to on the range or while hunting. I don't think that it is practical advice in a defensive shooting, except in the movies.

Politely, I disagree -- a self-defense shooting is the most important time to know what's beyond your target; you'll be shooting under the highest stress and in an uncontrolled setting.

 

[KML]

Thank you all for the excellent replies. My 38 is steel, but for some reason is not labeled for +P, which I think S&W confirmed. In any event, I would rather be cautious. The consensus would imply I need to spend a lot more time at the range, and that the 640 with 38+P is the sweet spot. Further perspectives are of course most welcome.

Every single .38spl that has a model #(10,15 etc) can fire .38+p. Some like the air weight M-12 will wear out faster with +p , but can shoot it. Go back and look at the Air Force load for their .38's in the 50's it's a good 300/400 feet faster than today's +p loads. How many guns did the blow up back than? Plus a lot of those were victory models from WWII . Even the WWII load was faster than today's +p loads.

 

[Vigo]

I think the .38spl +p with a hollow point bullet is the best balance between power, expansion, and manageability. I think it does everything you want for self-defense from a revolver reasonably well, without excessive recoil.

 

[Kid44]

Take out the worry factor, don't shoot and just yell "freeze, Miami vice".

 

[Edmo]

Every single .38spl that has a model #(10,15 etc) can fire .38+p. Some like the air weight M-12 will wear out faster with +p , but can shoot it. Go back and look at the Air Force load for their .38's in the 50's it's a good 300/400 feet faster than today's +p loads. How many guns did the blow up back than? Plus a lot of those were victory models from WWII . Even the WWII load was faster than today's +p loads.

I agree that pressure levels seem to have been higher back in the good old days.

However, I was told by a S&W technician to stick with standard pressure ammo in my early 80s model 60 "no dash" to keep it's action tight.

My gun was sent back to the mother ship for a repair several years ago. S&W contacted me to ask a question about the repair and I asked specifically about +P in this gun marked for standard pressure ammo. I was told a few wouldn't loosen it up, but a steady diet of +P ammo would.

Edmo

 

[t0073]

I am very grateful for all of you and your excellent information. Trying to reconcile all this, I visited my local gun shop this morning and met a new sales gal who happened to be fond of 357. In keeping with statements above, she seemed to suggest that grains in the 125 range might be better for daily carry, but something in the 158 range might be better in the woods. Agree?

 

[BE Mike]

Politely, I disagree -- a self-defense shooting is the most important time to know what's beyond your target; you'll be shooting under the highest stress and in an uncontrolled setting.

Under the stress of real live defensive shooting, one will be lucky to see the front sight. Tunnel vision probably will block out a lot of peripheral views.

 

[jtcarm]

I have a 1992 classic 38 Special (no +P)

Am I missing something? A 1992 gun should handle +P.

 

[t0073]

I called S&W, and they said my steel snubbie was made in April 1993, and that +P guns didn't start until 1997. He indicated that it could lead to cylinder or frame damage.

 

[t0073]

The shop gal also showed me an 80 grain fragmenting cartridge, came on a card, name escapes me, started with G I think. How would this compare in a 357 with 38 JHP, 38+P JHP, and a 125 grain 357 JHP as a defensive round?

 

[Damol]

80gr, comes on a card, starts with a G, sounds like a Glaser, I don't trust them but that's just me. In 38spl I like the old FBI load in a +P or
standard pressure loading. Underwood Ammo has both loadings and the lead is quite soft, and loaded hotter than the big 3 load them.

 

[t0073]

80gr, comes on a card, starts with a G, sounds like a Glaser, I don't trust them but that's just me. In 38spl I like the old FBI load in a +P or
standard pressure loading. Underwood Ammo has both loadings and the lead is quite soft, and loaded hotter than the big 3 load them.

Yes, Glaser. Pardon my newbieness, who are the big 3? Thanks!

 

[Hapworth]

Under the stress of real live defensive shooting, one will be lucky to see the front sight. Tunnel vision probably will block out a lot of peripheral views.

Yup. Does that make it any less important to know when you're pulling the trigger if there are bystanders behind, beside or in between you and your target? Nope.

 

[gman51]

It has been reported that using +p in a none +P revolver more than likely will not damage the gun especially if seldom used. Since a person that carries probably has less than a 1% chance of being in a defensive shooting then I agree the +P is the preferred choice over the .357 mag.
I have an LCR 357 and I was carrying it with .357 mags but recently reading about how a .357 can very possibly go straight through a person I decided to go back with the 38spl +P. I was carrying the 357 because I thought with it being over twice the fire power of the 38 or +P and I might only get in one shot on target that I would rather have it be a heavy hitter. I don't like the idea of the bullet going straight through someone endangering bystanders. Also the 357 is so fricken loud that I would possibly be deaf at least temporarily. Also the fact the recoil is very noticeable.
I know have seen first hand a 9mm fmj go through a wall of drywall--through a hollow door--through another drywall wall-through another door and into another wall where I believe the bullet stuck in a corner wall framing.
I asked an x marine about the 9mm they used if it did go through people. He said it went through them like paper plates.
I have seen 9mm fmj go through two 3x4 landscape timbers and then through two sheets of 3/4 plywood. I then totally rebuilt my bullet stop using 1.5 yards of sand with oak 4x6 planks behind the sand. Nothing is passing through this including a high powered rifle.
I am target shooting into a sand bullet stop and I have yet to see a hollowpoint not fully expand. I shoot from about 9 yards out. Even the 22lr from a 4" revolver is expanding fully. The 357 all expanded totally and no it didn't pass through the oak planks.
IMO the gun makers are saying not to use +P in a non +P revolver mostly due to possible liabilities. If you ever pick up an LCR 38+P that gun is feather light at about 13oz. If that light gun can handle +P then I really think an all metal S&W36 or any metal snub should be able to handle +P for an occasional use at least.

 

[41 fan]

I have chronoed several .357 and .38 factory cartridges.
Speer 135 gr short barrel made 1100 fps from a 3 inch 65. The 125 Speer made 1230 from the same gun. Federal 125's made 1240 fps from the 65. Federal 110 gr .357 made 1125 fps.
Federal .38 LHP +P made 850 fps. Fed 125 gr Nyclads made 810 fps.
Corbon used to offer some real hotrods. 110 hp at 1300 fps and a 158 LHP at 1050 from the model 65.
This past Wednesday I fired some Speer .357 135gr short barrel Gold Dots in my 649. I found them to be just below the threshold of being uncomfortable. The 649 weighs 22 oz. unloaded. Dean

 

[Warren Sear]

Under the stress of real live defensive shooting, one will be lucky to see the front sight. Tunnel vision probably will block out a lot of peripheral views.

Exactly. Statistically, about 50% of shots fired in a defensive situation will miss their intended target completely. We need to forget any idea of carefully placed shots, or thoughts of depending upon the aggressor's body to stop a bullet.