.380 Not Good Defensive Caliber??

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TJ Hodges, you are correct!

I have seen the same study as you have and you are absolutely right.

The website with the study is here: Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull

There are vast differences in the .380 ACP ammo available and its effectiveness in a self-defense setting. If you visit the page and look at the careful methods used in determining the best ammunition for your .380, you will be pleasantly surprised that some ammunition is effective up to the FBI standards.

Check it for yourselves ... Good on ya tjhodges!

QUOTE=tjhodges310;138336475]I completely DISAGREE with this statement. You need to do more homework. There are some crappy JHP rounds for short barrel 380s and very few good ones. However, the good ones pretty much meet the FBI protocol for penetration (12-18 inches) and actually expand decently as well, even with 4 layers of denim. If you do enough internet research you will find the good ones.[/QUOTE]
 
I was a working street cop for 30 years and involved in three on duty shootings w/my issued thirty-eight and it worked every time, bad guy down and I made it to retirement. I've carried a .380, .32 and a .22 but my trust is with the little revolver that I still carry b/c I no longer go in harm's way. The caliber wars will go on forever and my choice is both emotional and experienced based. Choose what works for you, practice often and pray you never need that skill.
 
Are there better defensive rounds, probably. Do I love my Beretta 84 stuffed with 13 rounds of 90 grain Buffalo Bore .380s, absolutely. Does it mean I don't carry .38 spec, .357, 9mm, .40, .45, nope, I like them too. And if I ever get too old and my hands get real weak, I will probably be carrying a .22. Make an intelligent decision of what and how to carry and then live with your choice.
 
I do believe that bigger is better. I have 3 .45's but more than that in .38's and one .380. It is a Browning M10 and is a totally 100% reliable piece.

When a .380 does not stop a bad guy right now we say well what did you expect....a mouse gun. When it does stop right now we say , well that was just luck. When a .45acp does not stop right now we say...well that is a rare occurrence and fluke or freak something. So the failure of the .45 is overlooked and discounted, and just the opposite is accorded the .380. I agree a larger or more powerful gun should be carried by police and Army, but a .380 quickly presented from a pocket and applied in just a few feet, not yards, is going to do what it intends to do and that is drive away the threat.
 
Some Newer 380 Offerings

380 fmj ball is good and better than lighter 380 Hp for defense. The lighter 380 HP lacks penetration to reach vitals.

For those who choose to carry a 380 I suggest they__as well as those who simply get negative about that caliber__check out Underwood's 380 Xtreme Defender. They load Lehigh's bullet
in that round. These solid all copper "fluted" bullets are impressive. I have Lehigh's (same bullet) 380 loads in my Sig P232 as my "desk gun". It was in the drawer until this new
bullet design came out.

That said I have my 9mm pistols loaded with Federal's HST and
some with Underwood 9mm +P+ 90gr Xtreme Defender. These are my EDC. But then, 9mm has been my choice caliber for half
a century.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo
 
Tell your buddy to shoot himself with the .380 and get back to you on it... While the .380 isn't as powerful as some it all depends on the bullet choice and shot placement. In cold weather where the perps will be wearing heavy clothing I'd choose the 9mm., but in the hot T shirt weather I'd feel plenty safe with a G42 in .380 ACP . Look at these guys. They make some pretty formidable defense ammo
380 Auto 65gr Xtreme Defense Ammunition – Lehigh Defense, LLC
 
To the OP rlight

Basically, when anyone dogmatically asserts something like . . . Well, for instance, that the the .380 ACP is a "worthless" defense round, politely ask for the evidence on which he bases his assertion. His reply will often be telling. My reply would be, "bunk!"

I've watched this ammuntion/caliber debate with both academic and personal interest since the early 1970s, and being a professional university physiologist who has taught his fair share of A&P courses to nursing students and other students entering the health professions, I know my way around a real human body, as in "cadaver". As a handgun hunter, I know what handgun calibers can (and cannot) do well. (Also, from working private security and having been a licensed private detective, I know how to take all of this quite personally!)

After reading a whole load of journal articles, and talking to emts, er docs, etc., who have seen a whole lot of gunshot wounds, I've tried to pull a few conclusions together.

The basic truth is, bullet placement outranks all other considerations. As long as we are talking mid- to larger-calibers (.357/9 mm and up), shots placed where damage is done to lungs, liver, heart, kidneys, major blood vessels, large bones, etc. will all tend to have an incapacitating effect. Any damage done to major nerves will simple amplify and speed up the incapacitation. (I will get to the CNS in a moment.)

The human body has built-in reactions to fight off shock which can help keep an assailant going (or coming, as the case may be), which is why one reason a number of old-time gun fighters liked to put a round in the pelvis, to break that girdle and put the opponent doen quickly. (Curiously, Bill Jordan used the belt buckle as an aiming point.). Bigger bullets may have an edge here.

[The myth -and that is all it is- of the "one-stop shot" is not only poor science, it is no science at all. It is totally dependent on obtaining a direct hit to the central nervous system, or sometimes (only rarely, in truth) the upper heart where the major vessels leave resulting in catastrophic blood loss. Any caliber bullet, if it hits the brain or spinal column solidly, will terminate the fight.]

Any cartridge/ firearm combination that allows a shooter to reach deep enough to do major tissue damage is sufficient, I submit, to be deemed "adequate" for self-defense carry. What those combinations might be for a particular shooter will be hightly idiosyncratic. Oddly enough, one can argue, the .380 ACP is a choice for both highly expert hands (which can make many gun/cartridges combinations work) and for those who have difficulting handling even 9 mm. If you shoot that .380 well, and will practice, go abroad in confidence.

Any discussion must also include the need to be up-to-date on ammunition advances. Even compared to six or eight years ago, we have a wider range of effective rounds available in catridges from .380 up - more than ever before. No longer do we have to automatically trade off adequate penetration to gain significant bullet expansion. We are in or are enteing a golden age of defensive rounds, such as were only dreamed of by Lee Jurras in the late 1960s.

One note, surely one that I will be dinged on by many, is that we should beware of the beatification of the FBI stadards for civilian ammunition choices. The FBI has specific goals in mind, obviously reflecting the understandable institutional trauma that it still suffers from the tragic Miami debacle. But civilians are unlikely to to need ammuntion which meets standards of penetration of barriers of glass, auto bodies, etc. Clothing is a valid and separate consideration. But limiting acceptable choices of suitable self-defense ammunition to "FBI approved" reeks of unthinking reflexive, dogmatic assertion, rather than a reasoned approached to ammo selection. This standard does not belong on any altar. It is not a relic. It needs to be examined, refined, criticisized, and refined more. I tire of smelling the aroma of incense in the air everytime it it trotted out -and please, let us hear no more of one-shot stop per entages. Junk science then and now!!! Poorly defined parameters, statistics that are meaningless, a waste of time, albeit well-intentioned. (Would receive an F as an undergrad science project for faulty standards.)

This is all a lot like wasting time on teaching the AVERAGE -not us- concealed weapon carrier to reload when (1) she or he will not have a reload, (2) she or he doesn't need a reload, while (3) she or he really needs to learn to shoot well by practicing regularly.

In the end, the 380 IS a lot like the venerable .30-30 used on whitetails. But the late Jack O'Conner, who surely can be defended as one of the great experts on deer hunting, thought the .30-30 was a dandy and white deadly deer rifle for Eastern hunting, when well-sighted in, used at appropriate ranges, and stocked with 150-grain fodder rather than the old-fashioned 170-grain loads. It would be a fine defense round as well.

As for the .30-30, so for the 380 ACP: use it well, with appropriate ammunition. Expanding ammuntion is available which will both feed and give good penetration in civilian circumstances, without resorting to the fmj which has given tbe .380 ACP a bad rep. When the day comes when you can move up and shoot a 9 mm as well as your .380, do so, but not a day earlier. Meanwhile, carry with pride.

Just IMHO. Stay safe.
Brian
 
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You said 'Here we go again", I am fairly new to the S&W Forum, so I get the feeling that this topic has probably been discussed multiple times.

This topic is probably second only to "Bear" threads in frequency of discussion. :)

And welcome to the forum. Lots of expertise to tap into here!

Bob
 
Years ago in the early online caliber wars, I coined the signature line "Shot placement is king; adequate penetration is queen; everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins."

To me, it keeps coming back to what Erich has quantified, above. Case in point: a couple of weeks ago, my son and I were invited to hunt feral hogs on a private ranch. Our goal was to harvest a hog or two for meat, and not for the joy of killing, eradication, etc. I shot a young hog that probably weighed 60-80 lbs. at around 30 yards range in the head with a single 158 gr. JHP bullet (.357 Magnum) from my 1894 Marlin carbine. At the shot, the hog dropped immediately. It didn't move or twitch, but dropped straight down at the shot as if hit by the Hammer of Thor. I cycled the lever on the little carbine and watched the hog carefully for a few moments.

After seeing no signs of life, I started gathering my gear and closing the blind up. I exited the blind and walked out into the field to pick up my hog - and found nothing. I searched for over an hour until darkness ended my search. My conclusion was that the bullet had hit the hog in the head, and basically knocked him out for a few minutes. In the few minutes it took me to pack up and walk out to him, the hog recovered and ran away. We did find a few drops of blood where I shot the hog the next morning, but we never found or recovered that hog.

Prior to the hunt, another hunter offered to loan me a "real gun" (.45-70 Marlin Guide Gun), but I turned the offer down as I had confidence in the ammo and the rifle. The other hunter agreed saying he had killed "tons of deer and hogs" with a .357 Magnum handgun. In this instance, I think the shot placement was fine, but inadequate penetration kept me from harvesting meat.

Regards,

Dave
 
I don't carry a 380 but I have met a lot of Police Officers that do. I did Police Car maintenance for Ten Years of the 30 years I worked for a City. I got to know every Officer. I also worked at 5 Gunshops over those years meeting ATF, FBI, Sheriffs and Police Officers. A lot of them carried 380s off duty and as back up. A lot of them did not carry off duty. I picked what I like, what I can handle, and what I can shoot.
 
In the 1990s I was issued a Browning DA .380 (13 round magazine) for a "Special Duty" assignment. I inquired information from a ASF veteran about the .380acp round as I had never used this small round .
He advised to use PMC 88 grain JHP ammo which I did. I conducted tests with the weapon and cartridge and was very impressed with this combination.
 
?
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I also worked at 5 Gunshops over those years meeting ATF, FBI, Sheriffs and Police Officers. A lot of them carried 380s off duty and as back up. A lot of them did not carry off duty.
...
Off topic from the .380 discussion, but related to the quoted post.

I was in a couple social groups where there were quite a few active police officers. Untli I started posting on this and a couple other gun forums, I didn't even realize there were officers that were gun guys. The guys I knew, their pistol was just another issued tool. They were no more gun guys than they were baton guys or handcuff guys.
 
The rejection of 380 as a poor choice for SD is unsupportable. Like any other weapon it is the ability to use it properly that counts more than anything else. Being a lower recoil round than 9mm and 49 & 45 for many who do not have the strength or are physically impaired it is an excellent choice. The key factor is using the right ammo and being accurate in hitting center mass.
 
THE NEVERENDING SEARCH FOR SOMETHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.

Don't like 380's, don't use em. We get a lot of "9mm's barely make it out the barrel & will bounce off someone if it does". I don't see many volunteering to stop a 380 or 9mm.
Ditto the old/ghost tread complaint, Have a valid interest & ACTYALLY USE the search function, you catch heat, don't use the search function & post something (of interest to you but covered before) you catch heat. A collective "lighten up Francis" to the complainers.
 
. In cold weather where the perps will be wearing heavy clothing I'd choose the 9mm., but in the hot T shirt weather I'd feel plenty safe with a G42 in .380 ACP .

^^^^^this^^^^^^

I am certainly no expert
I find a substantial amount of great value added information from extremely knowledgeable members of this forum, as well as humor :)
 
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