38's, 357's & a 4" 19-4

[tascofeldman]

I've seen it batted back & forth so what is the definitive answer? Is using 357's in a 19-4 forbidden as some would have it? Have read what seems to boil down to bullet weight problems. 150+ grain fine as long as the cylinder is cleaned well after a diet of 38's. Lighter 357's appear to be the problem. Some say 38's only with the once in a blue moon 357 after a good cleaning. Is the cracked forcing cone issue a small problem with a select few that has been blown out of proportion? Is it such a serious problem that I should be concerned? This gun is not a safe queen, it's gonna see plenty of sunshine.
Next question. I've read on this forum that a dedicated 38 will shoot tighter groups than a 38 out of a 357, true or false. If true would it stand to reason that off the bench my 19-4 should shoot a 357 as well as a say, model 10 would shoot a 38. Given that the bullets were of the same weight, barrels same length and the distances were the same, inside of 25 yds or so. I'm aware of bullet drop in relation to powder charges and such, talking steel plate and paper target ranges.
Thanks for helping me sift through the mud!

 

[Vulcan Bob]

As with so many thing's there are always two or more correct answer's. Now in my perception of reality on this subject matter I feel the use of 357 mag loads is just fine as long as I stay away from the 125gr loads in the K frame's. I prefer to use lead bullets in mine just to minimise the wear and tear. As far as accuracy of 38 specials in a 357 magnum, logic would dictate that this would not be as accurate as a revolver chambered for the 38 special. However it seems revolvers are not impressed with logic and will shoot as they may! I have a six inch M-19 that will outshoot my M-14's with 38 special ammo. Each and every revolver will shoot a bit diffrently and the only way to find out is to shoot em and see.

 

[P&R Fan]

The .357 Magnum 125 grain loads are the ones we're supposed to stay away from in K-Frames, due to the aforementioned forcing cone issues. Probably good advice. I would never put a large amount of them through my K-Frames.
My favorite K-Frame carry revolver is a 2 1/2" M66-1. I'm wearing it on my right hip right now. It's loaded with Federal 125 grains JHPs.
I live on the edge. I have actually run with scissors, too.
Jim

 

[roaddog28]

The issue about shooting 357 magnums out of a K frame magnum is overblown. The full power 125 gr traveling at 1400 fps and over are the rounds a person should limit with a K frame magnum. Not all 125 gr magnums are hard on revolvers. The mid range 125 gr magnums Golden Saber rounds by Remington are find and are easier to shoot. I usually use 158 gr 357s in my model 13, 19 and 66.
As for shooting 38 specials in a 357 magnums. At close range say 7 to 15 yrds there is not a lot of difference. At longer distances there maybe a difference depending on the revolver.
Hope this helps,
Howard

 

[Joe in SC]

This is the way I see it and I own and shoot 3 K frame magnums. There are no more barrels to replace the one's with split forcing cones. As a result I observe the following as an owner/shooter: I do not shoot 125 grain or lighter magnum loads in my K magnums. I shoot mostly 38 special loads at the range. I clean the chambers afterwards to avoid a buildup of carbon which would prevent normal chambering of magnum rounds. I do not find this to be a problem and from my experience one would have to fire much more than a few rounds for this to become a problem, not to mention totally ignoring the need to clean the gun.

When I do shoot magnum loads I usually limit the number of rounds to a couple or three cylinders full of the load I carry for defense, which in all cases is 140 grains or heavier.

I shoot a lot of homecast, hard lead bullets and am very attentive to the condition of the forcing cone. A shooter/writer with much more experience than I thinks the split f. cones is somehow related to a fouling build-up on the f. cone followed by high pressure loads. This seems to make sense to me so I watch it fairly closely.

It has been published by several sources that S&W declared the K-frame magnums were never designed for a steady diet of magnum rounds. That makes perfect sense to me also so I don't push the issue.

I know for a fact that the forcing cones do split as I have seen this for myself. The offending rounds were 125 grain hp's loaded by an aquaintance to full magnum loads as directed by the bullet manufacturers loading data.

I have more than a couple N-frame 357 magnums and if I feel the need for a magnum fest I pull out the 27's or 28's. I like the 19 and 66 too much to take a chance on ruining a great little revolver that can't be repaired. Why question or doubt this occurance if you like your gun?

Having fired thousands of 38 special rounds out of both 38 special and 357 magnum chambered guns, I think one would have to be a world class bullseye shooter or either shoot the guns mounted in a machine rest to tell the difference in accuracy between the two. The only difference I have ever noted came down to adjustable versus fixed sights and not the chambering.

 

[C Islander]

The .357 Magnum 125 grain loads are the ones we're supposed to stay away from in K-Frames, due to the aforementioned forcing cone issues. Probably good advice. I would never put a large amount of them through my K-Frames.
My favorite K-Frame carry revolver is a 2 1/2" M66-1. I'm wearing it on my right hip right now. It's loaded with Federal 125 grains JHPs.
I live on the edge. I have actually run with scissors, too.

Jim

Good answer. My 66 2 1/2 no dash isn't afraid either. I'm only allowed to have round nose scissors!

 

[Stu Honea]

Vulcan Bob and roaddog kind of took the words right out of my mouth. No worries with 357 in K Frame,but as stated I would just stay away from those super hot 125 grainers.
I have a particular 2 1/2 inch Mod 19,the one in my avatar, that had quite a few of those loads through it in the old days,because we didn't know any better and those were the hot ticket of the times.

This gun fortunately did not experience any forcing cone errosion or flame cutting of the top strap. It's had quite a lot of 158 magnums through it too,but is still as tight today as ever. However,there have been many incidents of K Frames that didn't fare so well,but probably had more of those rounds through them than mine did. Hence the L frame introduction,a good move for S&W. Great guns.

I also agree that accuracy (357's vs 38's) is often largely dependent on the particular gun.They seem to have their own personalities. It's just something you'll need to check out with your own revolvers to be sure.

 

[tascofeldman]

As always this group has been a great help. My 19 does not seem to have any flame cutting or cone issues. I've always been fond of heavier bullet weights anyway so the hot rod loads would'nt be on the menu. I'm sure to have more questions and look forward to picking your collective brains again!

 

[zelda]

Dad says, "Magnums in magnums. Specials in specials. No ring around the collar. Problem solved."

 

[PA Reb]

This is the way I see it and I own and shoot 3 K frame magnums. There are no more barrels to replace the one's with split forcing cones. As a result I observe the following as an owner/shooter: I do not shoot 125 grain or lighter magnum loads in my K magnums. I shoot mostly 38 special loads at the range. I clean the chambers afterwards to avoid a buildup of carbon which would prevent normal chambering of magnum rounds. I do not find this to be a problem and from my experience one would have to fire much more than a few rounds for this to become a problem, not to mention totally ignoring the need to clean the gun.

When I do shoot magnum loads I usually limit the number of rounds to a couple or three cylinders full of the load I carry for defense, which in all cases is 140 grains or heavier.

I shoot a lot of homecast, hard lead bullets and am very attentive to the condition of the forcing cone. A shooter/writer with much more experience than I thinks the split f. cones is somehow related to a fouling build-up on the f. cone followed by high pressure loads. This seems to make sense to me so I watch it fairly closely.

It has been published by several sources that S&W declared the K-frame magnums were never designed for a steady diet of magnum rounds. That makes perfect sense to me also so I don't push the issue.

I know for a fact that the forcing cones do split as I have seen this for myself. The offending rounds were 125 grain hp's loaded by an aquaintance to full magnum loads as directed by the bullet manufacturers loading data.

I have more than a couple N-frame 357 magnums and if I feel the need for a magnum fest I pull out the 27's or 28's. I like the 19 and 66 too much to take a chance on ruining a great little revolver that can't be repaired. Why question or doubt this occurance if you like your gun?

Having fired thousands of 38 special rounds out of both 38 special and 357 magnum chambered guns, I think one would have to be a world class bullseye shooter or either shoot the guns mounted in a machine rest to tell the difference in accuracy between the two. The only difference I have ever noted came down to adjustable versus fixed sights and not the chambering.

I whole heartedly agree with everything you said and I believe these were some of S&W's best combat revolvers. However, I have a statement in your above post highlighted in red that has always puzzled me. Why did S&W produce the K frame in the .357 magnum caliber and then turn around and state they weren't made for a steady diet of 357s? It seems to me they made the statement AFTER a problem was discovered - sort of like closing the gate after the horses are out! Would this be the reason production of the 66s and 19s was halted? Inquiring minds want to know!!

 

[faraim]

Hello, feeding your 19 a steady of maximum loads will cause wear to accelerate. Eventually you will encounter timing and endshake issues. Possibly parts will have to be replaced. This is the nature of the beast. Spare parts are getting fewer, and the number of qualified pistolsmiths shrinks every year. In short, repairs are expensive. I've never done a torture test on a 19 so I don't know how many rounds it takes to "shoot one loose" but I'm sure it can be done. I've fired fire-breathing, hairy chested rounds out my pre-19 and don't enjoy it. I use mine for heavy .38 special equivalent loads and my hands and wrists are much happier. Good luck with your decision.

 

[brucev]

Re: OP. You are overthinking this matter. Shoot magnum ammunition in your 19-4 as desired. But use common sense. As to internet rumors and anecdotal stories, remember that "proportion" is a quality seldom found among such reports so take them all with a very large shovel of salt.

Theoretically there might be an advantage firing .38 Special ammunition in a carefully chambered revolver for that caliber. The same would be true of a .357 Magnum. But, theory seldom equates with practical results. In a standard service type revolvers, there may occasionally be some possible difference in on target accuracy between chamberings in .38 special and .357 magnum but it will not be significant. I've had a number of revolvers in both .38 and .357 calibers. I've not ever noticed any tendancy of a .38 chambered revolver to shoot better groups than .357 revolvers of equal quality. I currently own a 15-3, 4" 686 and two 6" 29-2 revolvers. The .357's produce excellent results w/ the same .38 Special ammunition I use in the 15-3. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

 

[KJM]

I've seen it batted back & forth so what is the definitive answer? Is using 357's in a 19-4 forbidden as some would have it? Have read what seems to boil down to bullet weight problems. 150+ grain fine as long as the cylinder is cleaned well after a diet of 38's. Lighter 357's appear to be the problem. Some say 38's only with the once in a blue moon 357 after a good cleaning. Is the cracked forcing cone issue a small problem with a select few that has been blown out of proportion? Is it such a serious problem that I should be concerned? This gun is not a safe queen, it's gonna see plenty of sunshine.
Next question. I've read on this forum that a dedicated 38 will shoot tighter groups than a 38 out of a 357, true or false. If true would it stand to reason that off the bench my 19-4 should shoot a 357 as well as a say, model 10 would shoot a 38. Given that the bullets were of the same weight, barrels same length and the distances were the same, inside of 25 yds or so. I'm aware of bullet drop in relation to powder charges and such, talking steel plate and paper target ranges.
Thanks for helping me sift through the mud!

Use of Magnum Loads in S&W Model 19 and Other K-Frame Magnums

 

[Pointblank2U]

I've always suspected that issues like this originate with irresponsible handloaders damaging their guns and then trying to blame factory ammo in order to get a free repair or new gun. No proof of it, but just my hunch. I carried a 66 4" on duty as an LEO for a lot of years and none of us had a problem. Just my two cents.

 

[18DAI]

Yes, the "issue" has been WAY overblown on the internet.

Yes, use 158 grain 357's. Keep the forcing cone clean and free of lead build up and carbon deposits. Shoot as many 357's as you are able and can afford. If you can afford enough ammo to shoot loose a K-frame magnum, you can easily afford a replacement for it. Either way you will have gotten your moneys worth.

The model 19 was built side by side with the L-frames for longer than twenty three years. Do you really think S&W would have continued to produce the K-frame magnums if they were so prone to problems? I don't think so either. Regards 18DAI

 

[roaddog28]

Yes, the "issue" has been WAY overblown on the internet.

Yes, use 158 grain 357's. Keep the forcing cone clean and free of lead build up and carbon deposits. Shoot as many 357's as you are able and can afford. If you can afford enough ammo to shoot loose a K-frame magnum, you can easily afford a replacement for it. Either way you will have gotten your moneys worth.

The model 19 was built side by side with the L-frames for longer than twenty three years. Do you really think S&W would have continued to produce the K-frame magnums if they were so prone to problems? I don't think so either. Regards 18DAI

Exactly. Use common sense with 357 magnums. Take care of your model 19 and use 140 or heavier gr rounds and the revolver most likely will out live you!
Regards,
Howard

 

[gtoppcop]

All,

Very salient points indeed. Many of the issues from what I've read were tied to certain brands of Magnum 110/125gr ammo.

I've also read that many have shot Ks (13/19/65/66) thousands of times with both 125 and 158 Magnums with no adverse effects. Who knows!?

As many have thus far opined, moderation is the key. I was said that the heat (my gunsmith says 3.5 to 5K degrees) at the forcing cone and quick succession of shots for extended strings is most likely the culprit.

Ammo has changed (I think for the better) over the intervening decades. Powders are less errosive (.220 Swift!) and burn more evenly. We've been able to realize better ballistic performance from lower velocity.

I have my N-Frame .357s (Model 27-2 and 28-2) for extended strings with HOT magnums. My custom 19-5 is perfect with .38 +P AND Magnums. I just don't abuse it by firing alot of HOT magnums through her. With that said I fired 2 cylinders of Buffalo Bore's .357 +P 125gr. No issues except for the fact her flame cutting started. ALL .357s have the flame cutting.

Even the vaunted Ruger Security Six and GP100s had issues with extended firing of these rounds. They are considered by many to be the bulwark of the medium frame .357s.

Bottom Line: Treat your guns like a fine tool rather than a head of cattle (i.e. clean and maintain them!) and all will be well. Just my $.02

 

[nipster]

Re: accuracy on a 357 vs a 38

Should make zero difference. The only non-cosmetic difference between, say a model 19 and a model 15 is the cylinder is slightly larger. And I mean SLIGHTLY, like 1/16" bigger. That should NOT affect accuracy at identical barrel lengths.

 

[Dave T]

Why did S&W produce the K frame in the .357 magnum caliber and then turn around and state they weren't made for a steady diet of 357s? It seems to me they made the statement AFTER a problem was discovered - sort of like closing the gate after the horses are out! Would this be the reason production of the 66s and 19s was halted? Inquiring minds want to know!!

At the time the Combat Magnum was introduced, and it's intended usage was mostly law enforcement, departments and agencies did all their training and qualifying with 38 Specials and often with 148g target wadcutters. It was widely assumed/expected that the majority of the ammo that would be shot through the K-frame Magnum would be 38 Specials. If it was carried with Magnums in the chambers it would be sighted in with that round but that was about it.

In the 1970s departments became painfully aware of vicarious liability. One aspect of that was, if you didn't train and qualify your people with the ammunition they carried on the streets the department was liable in any wrongful death case...usually to the tune of hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars.

When Magnum carrying agencies started shooting a steady diet of Magnums, and the 125g was the most popular back then, the problems with 19s and 66s began to show up.

My own department went through this with their issued M-66s. It isn't internet rumor, it actually happened. Not all their 66s were problematic but enough that it worried the heck out of the bean counters.

Dave