38spl Ammo...Why So Much Junk?

[amd6547]

Seems like all the big manufacturers spend their production resources making 38spl ammo that is good for range only...I see tons of 158gn RNL, and 130gn FMJ. The FBI-type LSWCHP +P is hard to find, and overpriced when I do find it...
About the only reasonably priced SD ammo is the Winchester 125gn JHP +P as sold by Walmart.
While the new-tech JHP's at a dollar or more a round have their adherants, the FBI load is favored by many 38spl fans.
I can't believe one of the big manufacturers can't produce the FBI-type load for a more reasonable price.

 

[flop-shank]

This will likely stir some people up, but I'm going to say it anyway. Big ammo is a rip off. I carry handloads in several of my guns and eventually will faze out factory ammo altogether. I trust my ammo more than theirs and it's a lot less expensive. YMMV.

Obviously you've figured it out. A dollar a shot FBI load ammo is a world class price gouge. To top it off many of these makers will charge thirty + bucks for a box of twenty and not even have the courtesy to drop the bullet into a nickel plated case.

 

[Mod27]

Seems like all the big manufacturers spend their production resources making 38spl ammo that is good for range only...I see tons of 158gn RNL, and 130gn FMJ. The FBI-type LSWCHP +P is hard to find, and overpriced when I do find it...
About the only reasonably priced SD ammo is the Winchester 125gn JHP +P as sold by Walmart.
While the new-tech JHP's at a dollar or more a round have their adherants, the FBI load is favored by many 38spl fans.
I can't believe one of the big manufacturers can't produce the FBI-type load for a more reasonable price.

I just bought 250 rounds of Rem. GS 125 gr. 38+p and 120 rounds of Speer 135 gr. gold dot HP 38+p.

That any good for you? It's all pretty expensive nowadays. But what can you do if you don't reload?

 

[cp1969]

I haven't bought any factory centerfire ammo for so long I can't even remember the last time.

When you reload, you can make better ammo, FAR cheaper....it's not much of a decision to make.

 

[Mod27]

This will likely stir some people up, but I'm going to say it anyway. Big ammo is a rip off. I carry handloads in several of my guns and eventually will faze out factory ammo altogether. I trust my ammo more than theirs and it's a lot less expensive. YMMV.

Obviously you've figured it out. A dollar a shot FBI load ammo is a world class price gouge. To top it off many of these makers will charge thirty + bucks for a box of twenty and not even have the courtesy to drop the bullet into a nickel plated case.

I agree with you that commercial ammo is a rip-off. But it's all relative to the cost of living today IMHO. What do you purchase today that you don't think you're being gouged on?

I know for me, there's not much. What's a new Chevy Suburban cost? About 55K with a few extras before T&L.

A six pack of micro-brew beer at Safeway,- 8 to 9 bucks. Etc, etc. I complain but, I hand over my money 'cause I refuse to buy cheap stuff, even though I feel like I'm being gouged.

Everything just continues to go up, up, up.

 

[amd6547]

I have reloaded for 44 mag, and am buying dies for 38/357.
But, my point is, who wants all that 38spl FMJ and round nose lead?
If I am put in charge of Winchester ammo production, my first move is to cut production of those two loads by half and replace it with the FBI load....Why bother making so much of the old RNL and FMJ load?
If a decent manufacturer were to produce the FBI load for $25 a box of 50, they would sell all they could make.
As far as magic bullets that sell for a dollar or more a shot and come in tiny 20rd boxes...they can keep them.

 

[Dragon88]

Why bother making so much of the old RNL and FMJ load?

Because people shoot far more practice ammunition each year than self defense ammunition. It's the same for all the calibers, I see 100 rounds of practice ammo on the shelf for every 10 rounds of SD ammo.

The FBI load is old and outdated. It's name might still mean something to some people, but the trend today is all about fast, light JHPs. The ammunition companies make what sells and they do a pretty good job of it. If you want some old load then handload it yourself.

 

[nicky4968]

My self-defense ammo is my practice ammo. 158 gr rnl over 4.3 grains of Unique. Don't mean to start a flame war here, but I wouldn't want to get in front of it. It works every time. I can hit things with it. While I would love to have a Colt in .38 super, or a Model 29, or a Rigby rifle in .375/575 Vatderjelvasdot, the Model 10 is what I've got.
You've got to dance with the gal you brung.

 

[amd6547]

The trend of the hype may be fast and light (and unreasonably expensive) JHP's, but I'll take a nice soft lead 158gn LSWCHP at 900-1000fps any day.

 

[bmcgilvray]

The FBI load is old and outdated. It's name might still mean something to some people, but the trend today is all about fast, light JHPs. The ammunition companies make what sells and they do a pretty good job of it. If you want some old load then handload it yourself.

Nope. It isn't.

The +P 158 grain SWC is a viable and very effective alternative to the boutique "ammunition du jour" which is nothing more than faddish marketing. Self defense isn't about being trendy. At least it isn't in the minds of thoughtful handgunners. The ammunition companies may make what sells but they also do an excellent job of advertising, influencing the minds of their market. Just because it sells doesn't mean that it is necessarily best or that its buyers are all that knowledgeable.

Many years of field use of +P 158 grain .38 Special ammunition or its handloaded equivalent has convinced me that the "FBI load" is about as good as it gets in .38 Special guns of all barrel lengths. Lightweight bullets may be reserved for lesser cartridges like .380. At velocities attainable in 38 Special handguns, fast light JHPs are overrated.

 

[bsms]

I cheerfully use the FBI load for self defense. If sectional density is good for penetration in hunting game, it probably works on humans. The load has a history of working well, and humans haven't evolved a lot in the last 20 years. I suspect modern SD ammo works fine too, I just don't feel the need for it.

For practice, I buy the heavier bullets as cheap as I can find them in +P. I don't care what they are made of, just that they go roughly on the same path and produce roughly the same kick.

I'd like to reload someday, but haven't yet. For SD ammo, I won't ever reload. A box of 20 rounds should last me several years, and I'll only shoot it then because I don't want to keep it forever. That said, I shot some 15 year old 45 ammo recently and it all worked fine...

 

[amd6547]

"The ammo companies make what sells..." They also do a fine job of selling what they make. I wonder what the real cost of producing those dollar a round magic bullets is?
I would be happy with just two loads for all my 38spl needs, and a lot of my 357mag needs as well:
A reasonably priced 158gn LSWCHP +P and-
A hardcast 158gn LSWC loaded to the same velocity.
Those two would be all I need for my Model 15-3 and my Bodyguard snub.

 

[dkp9782]

Agreed, plus most fixed sight revolvers are STILL regulated for the 158 grain bullet...hmmmm. 37 years of law enforcement in big cities and small towns proved to me the effectiveness of the "old" FBI load. NEVER but NEVER use reloads as self-defense ammo. They will rip you apart in court if you have to use one.

 

[nicky4968]

I don't mean to hijack the thread. Nor do I wish to start a flame war. My alternative to carrying reloads would be to carry somebody's factory ammunition. That would be one box. It probably would only be a package of 20 rounds of somebody's highly touted SD ammunition.
It would be more likely, if called into court, I would be hauled over the coals for carrying ammunition, "designed for murder," of which I only ever purchased 20 rounds, as opposed to one of tens thousands of rounds of 158 gr rnl I have cast and shot.
Actually, after 31 years in court, I have never had the ammunition brought into question by a hyperventilating lawyer. The actual firearm, yes; the ammunition, no.

 

[Pisgah]

For those who feel all factory ammo is overpriced -- well, I would agree that some of it probably is. But before you make a blanket judgement, I would invite you to go out and get the licensing needed, buy the insurance, pay for the compnents, hire the help you'll need, book the advertising, arrange for the storage, transportation and distribution -- then show me how you can do it cheaper and still stay in business.

 

[Jellybean]

I don't think the cheap plinking ammo is all the companies are making, it's just what all the ammo hoarders are leaving behind. And when some magazine writer puts out an article saying that the cheap stuff is better than the expensive "designer" ammo, it won't be cheap anymore either.

 

[APS]

Check out the local gunshows if there are any close to you. I often find Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots there in the LE packaging for $25/50rnds. That usually beats the FBI load by about $10/50rnds.

 

[cp1969]

Actually, after 31 years in court, I have never had the ammunition brought into question by a hyperventilating lawyer. The actual firearm, yes; the ammunition, no.

Exactly. If you're justified in shooting, it makes no difference what you use.

I see this "don't use reloads in SD guns" come up over and over, yet I never see anyone make the same warning about a gun that is "customized" for self defense.

On topic: The bullet itself is such a distant second place finisher to bullet placement that it's not even worth worrying about.

 

[desi2358]

One other thing to consider is that many buyers only buy the less expensive target type ammo. I sell a lot of ammo at gunshows and most of the people buying could not care less about whatever is hyped up as the "greatest defensive ammo on the market". They don't read the reviews, hang out on forums or worry much about what they loaded in the gun.
I sell 10 to 20 boxes of target type ammo for every box of defense type ammo. Many of those who do buy defense loads want the cheapest box they can find and they probably never shoot any of it. Very often when someone offers a gun for a trade they still have a full box of defense ammo with it.
Maybe if the defense ammo was as cheap as target ammo more people would buy it and actually shoot it but I don't think that's likely to happen.

 

[Black_Sheep]

It's unusual to find 158 LSWC in any of the local gunshops or retail outlets, that's why I "roll my own". Last time I calculated the cost it came out to about $6.50 per box (50) not including my single stage press and reloading dies...

 

[CALREB]

The big problem with finding any of that FBI type ammo is no major,and few minor agencies /military/ or anybody uses it, or much of it. They could sell some to the civilian market,and LE for back-up or off duty guns, but its all ammo for semi auto now,with a very small amount of revolver practice and service ammo used. Its like the other members said marketing whats in demand,most ammo companies are fat nowdays with military contracts and the ammo scare from the last couple years.The fact that people were paying about any price didnt help us either.Now most people wont spend 25-30 or more for any box of handgun ammo so they buy the cheapest stuff, so the ammo manufacturers make 20 different HP rounds and bonded not bonded etc. No one wants to hear about bullet placement.Heck I want to buy a cellphone that just makes and takes calls but that nearly impossible.Handloading is definitely cheaper and you can custom make for what you want so its a great idea if you have the capabilities and time. Here in CA who knows whats going to occur in the near future probably DNA test and $20.00 a round + 32 % state tax. I wish I was joking, Bob

 

[bmcgilvray]

"...I want to buy a cellphone that just makes and takes calls but that nearly impossible."

What a novel idea! A simple cell phone that doesn't complete nuclear fission while giving out the Billboard Top Ten tunes for the week.

Naah... it is probably beyond the capabilities of modern man to design something so simple and useful that doesn't do all our "thinking" for us.

 

[photoman]

Bullet technology has come a long way since the days of the old LHP+P. Marketing or not, the new bullets are performing much better. The Barnes X bullet is a perfect example. Expansion after barrier penetration is almost as good as expansion with no barrier penetration. That doesn't happen with the LHP.

The LHP+P load is a fine load and I wouldn't feel unarmed if I had to use it, but it's not accurate to say it's just as good as the new bonded or solid copper bullets.

Reloads for self defense? You're the one that will have to deal with the legal system. Use what you think will give you the best advantage in the court room.

 

[WR Moore]

Besides being one of the old, covered with cobwebs standards, the ol' 158 RNL is a load that gets sold on price point. Granted, a LSWC probably would be the same price, but there's tradition. Not to mention that ol' load has killed a slew of folks over the years.

 

[Splittinghairs]

38 Spl. 135 Grain GDHP @ 1000 FPS

They can produce for a better price! I reload the subject round at $10.50/50 MSRP, what do you think they can produce it for?

Quit buying it at the high cost and it will come down.

 

[captainjohnsofd]

Keep in mind the genuisses in Trenton have banned hollow/soft point ammo for civilian use since 1990. There is no other choice in NJ, including retired LEO's who carry. Criminals care not one whit about the ban. Guess what I am going to do when I retire next year.

 

[jmoln]

Is this what you are looking for? Available as factory new and as reloads from Georgia Arms. I practice and carry this in my 2.5" while the 135gr Speer goes in my J frame.

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point +P "NEW" 50pk
Your Price: $14.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point +P 50pk
Your Price: $11.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter "NEW" 50pk
Your Price: $14.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter 50pk
Your Price: $11.50

 

[BreakerDan]

I am tired of junk ammo in general.
I wish the big three would make not only
reasonable FBI 38s and JHP ammo,
but I would also like to see more of
the "premium" ball ammo like they used
to make. I prefer ball in my 1911 and
therefore really dont like to carry the
cheap junk ammo that is made right now.
Good ball would have a nickel case with
a crimp behind the bullet to prevent setback like
it used to have.

A good NICKEL cased 38 Special +P with a
158gr semi wad non HP would not be too much to
ask either. They are great field loads. I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose.
Seems like the nickel cases in general are becoming a thing
of the past.

 

[bmcgilvray]

"I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose."

I've wondered if the lead round nose 158 grain load was really as bad as some suggest.

I went through a phase for a couple of years of shooting 158 grain round nose bullets at a velocity of 860 fps. I had a cheap source for the bullets and used them extensively. In field use, all sorts of critters large and small fell to these bullets. Amazingly enough they went down for the count each and every time with good hits. Along about this same time (early 1980s) a very popular gun writer said in print that the load couldn't be depended on to stop a cottontail rabbit which "might run off and die." They must have had tougher cottontails in Wyoming where he lived than here in Texas. It was so much malarkey.

Of course I never had to employ the use of round nose lead to stop a human assailant so can't say for certain.

 

[tpd223]

Keep in mind the genuisses in Trenton have banned hollow/soft point ammo for civilian use since 1990. There is no other choice in NJ, including retired LEO's who carry. Criminals care not one whit about the ban. Guess what I am going to do when I retire next year.

I was traveling to NJ back in March, so I talked to the NJSP Firearms unit about the legalities since I knew as an out of state LEO I still had to abide by the ammo laws there.

Federal EFMJ, Cor Bon PowerBall, and Hornady Critical defense are all legal expanding rounds for use there, since they are not hollow points.

I felt well armed with a my Glock 19 (couldn't take my 17 since the mags are over 15 round capacity) loaded with 124gr +P EFMJ and my S&W 638 loaded with Buffalo Bore wadcutters.


Personally I wouldn't hunt with RNL or RNFMJ either, as I have seen solidly hit rabbits go quite a ways after being hit with these bullets in both .32 and .38 calibers. Wadcutters and SWCs flattened them with much more authority and no more loss of meat.

I know first hand of several officer involved shootings that went poorly due to the old RNL loadings not getting the job done on bad guys that were very well hit.