.38spl WC for SD?

[ENGINE18]

I went to the range yesterday with several K-frames and my 638-3 and to no surprise, they all were more accurate, for me, w/ Fiocchi 148gr LWC. I spent quite a bit of time w/ the 638, shooting different +P rounds (ouch). The most accurate, for me, were the Federal 158gr LSWCHP+P.

I kept going back to the wadcutters and was getting great accuracy with them @ 15yrds. My question is how effective are the wadcutters for self-defence? Thanks in advance.

 

[robertrwalsh]

There are three main criteria for effectiveness of SD ammo. #1 is shot placement. #2 is adequate penetration. #3 is everything else.

Shot placement is not a problem. Most people shoot target ammo just fine, as do most weapons. Low-power wadcutters are definitely light on penetration. The old mid-range wadcutter load was not so bad. You want something that will give 10-12 inches in balistic gel. A 148 grain wadcutter on top of 2.7 grains of bullseye can not be depended on to do that.

All that having been said, it's still better than throwing rocks.

 

[pete950]

Try the Buffalo boar full wadcutter factory load I carry that in my 642 bug.
It's a hard cast at 850 fps or so out of the snub.

 

[crsides]

In the old days ....

Hollow based wad cutters were used loaded BACKWARDS in 2" snub guns. Velocity was low enough to avoid leading with the soft wad cutters and the huge hole supposedly would open up on contact. One thing not taken in consideration was penetration. I have read recent testing suggesting that this load is very poor penetrator esp if the target was wearing heavy outer clothing, such as leather jackets, etc.


Charlie

 

[OIF2]

Actually, wadcutters do quite well as an SD load. I've seen several people shot with them, and it all depends on shot placement. While it wouldn't be my first choice, it's not a bad load for the home defense .38. Because it DOESN'T penetrate too deeply, it's a good round for the house gun, especially if you live in an apartment or there are kids on the other side of the wall. And it doesn't recoil much, so female users aren't intimidated.
Bob

 

[4330Inroute]

Thanks for posting the question. I was thinking of loading a Charter Arms undercover with wadcutters for my Mom. She lives in a mobile home and I was concerned about over penetration if she missed and stopping power if she didn't.

 

[sigp220.45]

I've seen a grand total of one shooting with the 148 full WC, so that makes me an expert. (I'd insert the little winking guy here, but I'm not sure how.)

A girl shot her true love in the area of the right nipple with one. It clipped a rib going in, ranged across the top of the heart disconnecting things, bounced off the far side of the ribcage, traveled merrily through all kinds of vital stuff, and wound up resting inside the pelvis somewhere, to be removed a day or so later by the medical examiner.

The guy said "oh", took a step, and dropped like a sack of spuds.

I wouldn't want to get shot with one. I think they make a decent choice for the recoil sensitive. They'd be a bear to reload with in a speedloader, though.

 

[681ismyfavorite]

easiest way to find out is to take a thick slab of pork ribs and place them against a couple of water jugs.

aim, fire, examine the results.

 

[Rule 303]

I think they are great, especially for the Ladies in J Frames.

Rule 303

 

[ifjpm]

I use the Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutters in my 5 shot S&W's. They work just fine.

 

[ENGINE18]

All the replies are greatly appreciated! However, several deserve a reply.

I figured that WC loads were not the best, but man do they hit POA in an easy fashion.

As to the BB WC load, yesterday I fired their LSWCHP low flash non +P, rated identical to their WC, and it was a handfull; about the same as the Federal LSWCHP+P, which were more accurate in my 638; go figure.

Rule303, that was hurtfull!
"681", can I eat the ribs after?
"sig", good info!
for several of you:
maybe the idea of limited penetration is not so bad for a CCW weapon when the carrier is out and about.

My at home SD is primarily a 12ga. and a M65 loaded with BB or Feds. 158LSWCHP+P

I'm using Hideout Grips on the 638 for concealment, and while they are fine for that, they do "0" for recoil.

Somewhere I read that a famous NYPD detective carried, I think, one or two wadcutters for his first shots, then hotter loads thereafter.

Guess I'll keep looking for that illusive perfect airweight J-frame SD load. (heavier loads are not an issue in my 640-1, but the wife thinks it's her's. Whatta gal)

 

[681ismyfavorite]

engine.....go to your local grocery store and see if they have some expired meat, they usually do and will give it to free at the back door (cant pass it over the counter).

that way your wife wont wipe the floor with your ass for using her good pot-roast...LOL

ive used them on occasion, pork ribs because i want to mimic a human torso as much as possible.

there is a youtube video of a guy using a Glock 20 with double tap ammo that gave me the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw

 

[flop-shank]

I'm not agreeing with some of the comments in this thread and there really is no need to shoot up ribs, water jugs ect. (though it might be fun ). Test results are available online. Wadcutters, and I'm talking light target loads, generally penetrate as good or better than JHPs. I've tested them in Perma-Gel (the light target velocity handload that's in my wife's 3" model 60 is good for 15"+) and there are 10% gel results available over at www.brassfetcher.com . Just click the "Old Website" link on the home page and look at the .38 spl. results.

Jim Cirillo spoke highly of wadcutters and one of his partners used them a lot. The guy used them to dump BGs by shooting them in the pelvis.

I wouldn't fault someone for using WCs. They truly are machinegun-like when fired by a practiced shot.

As I recall, Lobogunleather attended the autopsy of a man who had been shot with a .38 wadcutter. Him and the pathologist were both impressed. Hopefully he'll weigh in on this.

 

[nitesite]

I carried my own reloaded ammo with cast 148-gr DEWCs for years in my Model 442. I cannot think of a more effective load from a 1-7/8" snub .38. These were not loaded as light as the 148-gr hollow-base target wadcutter but neither were they ferocious. They are what I consider the top end of standard pressure .38-Special

Damned accurate as well, with 25-yd accuracy around 4"-5" from a barricaded rest DAO.

 

[ENGINE18]

"681", thanks for the tipand the link. You're right, she just wouldn't understand!

"flop", I thought I'd heard about WC being reliable for SD, but could not remember where. And I didn't remember Carillo's name either (CRS Syndrome). Thank you.

"nite" That's the kind of information I'm looking for. Thank you, too!

I hadn't worked my 638 with WC in a while, and when I started consistantly hitting "9 and 10 rings" at 15 yards, it got me to thinking, ya know? Maybe I'll at least load the first two WC and the last 3 w/heavier loads like Speer SB or Fed 158LSWCHP+P. Maybe I can find some standard .38 158LSWCHP. Thanks to all of you!

 

[sheriffoconee]

it bears repeating....
HITS COUNT
center mass with a DBWC beats marginal hits or misses with a 45ACP....
there isn't a need to overthink which round is best for this...rounds that hit count

 

[ENGINE18]

That is what I'm thinking sheriffconee. I don't have any issues with my K-Frames and heavier loads. But that "Airweight" is dead-on, DA shooting the WCs with the Hideout Grips. I've have various rubber grips, like Uncle Mike's and Hogues that really tame the recoil and help me shoot that little gun a lot better, but they re just too "sticky" for CCW, IMO.

 

[flop-shank]

Wadcutters are neat and presented a unique reloading challenge for me. When I was developing the handload my wife uses in her 3" model 60, I tried a minimum load and a max load using IMR PB/148 gr. DEWC then fired them into Perma-Gel. I then tweeked the powder charge to get a compromise between the depth of penetration I desired, yet giving the bullet enough oomph to clear my 6" 686's barrel with 100% reliability in case I ever fired any in that gun. I wanted a load that would stop in 12 - 14 inches of gel. What I settled on stops in 15" whether heavy cloth is present or not. In a nutshell, I developed the load around the depth of penetration I wanted with no regard as to velocity. I have no idea how fast the bullet is going, but the minimum load with the IMR PB/148 gr. DEWC load data I used was mild enough that my wife and I could see some of them going down range when fired from my 360 PD. That minimum load was good for about 11 - 12 inches penetration IIRC. The beauty is that I use the exact same load I put in my wife's gun as range ammo and they are dirt cheap to make. The serious defensive ammo, however, is made with once fired and tumbled nickel brass and individually weighed charges.

 

[ENGINE18]

flop-shank, that's just what I need, another phase of the gun hobby!

 

[flop-shank]

Na, all you need is the recipe (just PM me if you want it). I already did the homework.