3rd Gen frame/slide internal wear

[1ActuaL3]

Afternoon everyone! I just picked up a S&W 3953TSW and noticed some heavy wear on the internals. Now I'm curious if this is related to round count (used to be a LE pistol) or some other kind of excessive wear. As for the pistol, is there any way I can prevent it from damaging itself more? Looks to me that the slide rails created a "scoop" and is digging into the frame rails. Also curious if a gunsmith could round those sharp edges off… What do y'all think?

 

[18DAI]

Congrats on your new pistol!

That wear is normal and yours does not appear to be bad at all. I would guess less than 1K rounds through that gun.

High round count aluminum 3rd Gen frames can look pretty gnarly sometimes, but they still hold up and function well. Especially the TSW series guns.

My +5K rounds 3913 looks way worse and still shoots like a laser with 100% reliability. To preserve your pistol and slow excessive wear, use a synthetic grease on the frame rails and change your recoil spring every 2500 to 3K rounds.

Do that and your Grandchildren will enjoy that fine nine. Hope this helps. Regards 18DAI

 

[MattB]

Since the 3953 has an anodized aluminum frame, you will inevitably have wear where the rails were anodized. I don't think that wear is excessive. I have a Beretta 92FS Inox that has similar anodizing wear on its rails and I've never had any issues.

 

[1ActuaL3]

Congrats on your new pistol!

That wear is normal and yours does not appear to be bad at all. I would guess less than 1K rounds through that gun.

High round count aluminum 3rd Gen frames can look pretty gnarly sometimes, but they still hold up and function well. Especially the TSW series guns.

My +5K rounds 3913 looks way worse and still shoots like a laser with 100% reliability. To preserve your pistol and slow excessive wear, use a synthetic grease on the frame rails and change your recoil spring every 2500 to 3K rounds.

Do that and your Grandchildren will enjoy that fine nine. Hope this helps. Regards 18DAI

Awesome, you made my day. Glad to have this one in good condition. It will have many more years of service in its life time!

 

[1ActuaL3]

Since the 3953 has an anodized aluminum frame, you will inevitably have wear where the rails were anodized. I don't think that wear is excessive. I have a Beretta 92FS Inox that has similar anodizing wear on its rails and I've never had any issues.

Okay good to know! I've only had the steel frame ones and hadn't seen similar wear. Either way I appreciate your reassurance!

 

[GaryS]

I shoot my CS9 and pre rail 3913TSW the most and the rails look about like that. Follow 18DAI's advice and you'll be a happy 3rd Gen owner for a long time.

 

[surfgun]

Run grease on those rails.
The previous user should have.

 

[JohnHL]

Maybe it's my eyes, but I couldn't see any appreciable wear to the slide rails in the three pictures presented.

Most wear on the alloy frame pistols occurs at the interface of the barrel and frame camming lugs that often tends to look bad but typically plateaus after a period of time.

Work hardening of the alloy frame, I assume.

I didn't see any pictures of the frame's lugs, but in two of the pictures, I thought I saw peening on the lower edge of the right side barrel lug.

The barrel lug is steel!!!

If it is peening, I would be very concerned.

I've never experienced any peening of a barrel lug in any of my pistols, even the steel frame models.

Pictures of the barrel and frame lugs would be helpful.

John

 

[stansdds]

The edges of the barrel cam lugs do look questionable. I cannot imagine the aluminum receiver damaging stainless steel lugs, but there is a history of pistols leaving the factory with barrel lugs that have burs. Those burs are quite capable of damaging the aluminum cam block surfaces of the receiver.


The receiver's slide rails look a bit worn, but that happens with aluminum receivers. What will make that worse is running the pistol with dry rails. S&W recommends a very light amount of oil, but this, along with the barrel cam lugs, is where I like a very thin smear of white lithium grease.


I'd really like to see more pics of the barrel cam lugs and the cam blocks in the receiver.

 

[18DAI]

Not sure, from the pics, but there appears to be some carbon build up and some grime on the lugs. At least thats what I see.

I don't see peening. What is there, on an aluminum frame, that could peen steel barrel lugs? Regards 18DAI

 

[1ActuaL3]

The edges of the barrel cam lugs do look questionable. I cannot imagine the aluminum receiver damaging stainless steel lugs, but there is a history of pistols leaving the factory with barrel lugs that have burs. Those burs are quite capable of damaging the aluminum cam block surfaces of the receiver.


The receiver's slide rails look a bit worn, but that happens with aluminum receivers. What will make that worse is running the pistol with dry rails. S&W recommends a very light amount of oil, but this, along with the barrel cam lugs, is where I like a very thin smear of white lithium grease.


I'd really like to see more pics of the barrel cam lugs and the cam blocks in the receiver.

Here are some closeups, I'm unfamiliar with the terminology but I'm thinking these are the photos you want to see. To me it looks and feels like there are metal spurs there that have been digging into the frame. Curious if those could be sanded down, or if it a worth just to have the barrel replaced (which is a shame since the bore is spotless).

 

[BMCM]

There is nothing there that needs fixing. I see some artifacts on the frame rails from normal wear at the rear. Up front on the frame rails an impression from where the barrel lands as it is cammed downward out of lockup upon firing. There is nothing in those images needing any kind of repair or polish or dremeling.

To ensure long life, grease the slide rails lightly with a NLG0 grade grease. My preference for this is Lubriplate SFL-0. And most importantly make sure you have a full power factory mainspring in the gun.

You also want to take care not to run the gun with a worn out recoil spring. Factory full power springs only. Since you just acquired the gun I'd replace that spring right off before taking it for a spin.

Cheers
Bill

 

[JohnHL]

Thank you for the pictures, 1ActuaL3.

Your pictures 2, 3, and 4 show the underside of the barrel.

In the center, underside rear of the barrel is a sloping surface that leads in to the chamber, known as the feed ramp. (You probably know this.)

On either side of the feed ramp, on the underside of the barrel are two angled "lugs" that hit the frame when the barrel is recoiling to the rear and pull the barrel down out of battery (locked, firing position) in the slide, allowing the slide to continue moving to the rear.

Those "V" shaped lugs on the barrel typically have a relatively sharp point at their lowest, rearmost apex.

On your barrel, the picture seems to show a "rolled over" or rounded apex on the right hand side lug.

I don't know what would be causing it and maybe it's just some gunk on the lugs, but it sure looks like unnatural wear in the pictures.

Some pictures of those lugs from the sides and from the rear might be helpful.

It's always difficult to diagnose what could be a problem with two dimensional pictures as opposed to seeing and handling the parts in person.

I'm not suggesting your pistol has a problem.

I've got lots of these pistols and never witnessed a failure in that area.

I just seem to be seeing something on your barrel that I've never seen on the dozens of S&W 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen barrels I have (new and used), and I would like to be more certain before I make a pronouncement.

John

 

[JohnHL]

Where are my manners?

Welcome to the Forum, 1ActuaL3!

I hope I'm not scaring you.

I'm just trying to be helpful.

John

 

[oink]

Those "rolled over" or "peened" areas on the barrel look more like burs that should have been addressed at the factory. I think I'd take a fine file and flatten them. You can see the effects of the burs on the frame.

 

[stansdds]

Based on the new photos, I am thinking there are sharp burs on the barrel's cam surfaces and the portion of the receiver where the barrel impacts during cycling is pretty deeply imprinted from the barrel's impact. This could be from lots of shooting, shooting a lot of +P or +P+ ammo, or the recoil spring was never replaced and has been weak for quite a bit of this pistol's time of use.

 

[18DAI]

I just pulled my high round count 4513TSW and lower round count 4563TSW out and looked at them - I don't own a 9mm TSW. Sorry!

My 4513TSW and 4563TSW BOTH have peened aluminum showing on the lower inner edges of the frames camming lugs. On the 4513TSW it is significant and disconcerting to look at. I see nothing similar in the OPs photos. By comparison to my pistol, his looks pristine and new! He still has anodizing on his rails.

AND the most important thing in the OPs photos, is the top edges of his frame camming lugs - they are sharp and straight edged. Member Fastbolt has taught us that THIS area, is the most important for correct unlocking and timing. NOT the lower surfaces. Those will be peened to a degree by virtue of steel impacting aluminum. But it is self limiting, like top strap flame cutting. It goes to a certain point and doesn't get any worse. PROVIDED the recoil springs are maintained and frame lubed.

Y'all are seeing something on the OPs 9mm TSW that I am not. Or I'm missing it. OP, lube that gun and enjoy it. They are extremely durable. I know because I still carry and shoot them. ALL THE TIME. And I haven't broke a TSW.....yet. Regards 18DAI

 

[JohnHL]

18, the O.P. has yet to post a clear picture of the front of the frame camming lugs, so I won't comment on any unusual wear there.

What I am seeing looks like a rolled or peened lower edge on the right hand barrel camming lug.

I don't know what that is and before I go blowing sunshine up the O.P.'s tailpipe, I would like a better look at the components.

BTW, the "ghost" impression left on the frame rails by the barrel when it unlocked and smashed into the frame is not something seen on all alloy framed Smith autos.

I caused that to happen on the first .357Sig conversion I did.

It was a 4043TSW that I had converted to TDA and I installed the .357Sig barrel and 22 pound recoil spring.

After a few shots that I felt were a little harsh, I disassembled the pistol to discover a brand new "ghost" image of the barrel on the rails.

That's why I only run .357Sig in steel framed pistols.

I have seen that "ghost" impression on alloy framed guns with weak springs.

John

 

[18DAI]

Well, I was not "blowing sunshine" to the OP. Simply pointing out that the FRAME camming lugs, as well as the rails on that pistol, look just fine, to me. IIRC, THAT was his inquiry.

Yes, I see that speck on the BARREL lug. Whatever it is. Where it is located, whatever it turns out to be, doesn't impact the camming shoulders in the frame.

Hopefully CALREB and Fastbolt will be along to render an opinion and see if there is anything to be concerned about. Regards 18DAI

 

[Fastbolt]

Here's a couple older pics of my 4013TSW after it had fired 2500+ rounds. The barrel chamber (bottom) slams down onto the top of the frame as part of the normal operation. This can leave marks. Normal. FWIW, there are NO burred spots on the bottom of that 4013TSW barrel, and the markings left on top of the frame are normal,caused by normal cycling during live-fire.



The camming lugs on each side of the barrel engage with the frame camming lugs, which control the camming down/dropping and the release (upward). The aluminum frames show wear differently than steel frames (since aluminum is softer than steel, obviously).

While I'm not there to examine and inspect the OP's gun, I don't see anything on the frame in the pictures that would cause me undue alarm.

That said, it does appear that the barrel's machining left some rolled, burred edges on the bottom of the barrel chamber area, (to each side of the feed ramp). The one on the R/Side (if barrel were held with barrel hood facing UP) outer corner looks like something to which I'd take a red stone and dress it flat (deburring). Ditto on the other side, along the rear outer edge (very small burred spots raised along out edge in pic). Not filing, grinding or polishing. Just flattening and removing the raised, burred spots with a regular 6" red stone. (A file removes metal quickly, and it's easier to make mistakes. )

Congrats on the gun and welcome to the forum.

Using oil or grease is up to you, but something needs to be present on the sides, tops and bottoms of the frame/slide rail grooves. Avoid excessive amounts, as excessive lube can cause its own problems. If the oil/grease is ozzing out and running down along the sides of the frame (next to the magazines), you're probably using too much?

I use a drop or two (small) on each side of the frame rails (which lubes the slide's rails); a large drop on the exterior of the barrel, spread around the barrel, from muzzle to top lug; a small drop on the front of the barrel hood; a small drop (or dab of grease) on each of the frame camming lugs; and any remaining oil or grease on my finger gets wiped around the guide rod. They also recommend adding a very small drop of oil to each side of the hammer's base, where it rotates/rubs within the frame (but don't make it so excessive that it will run off and spread around the rest of the inside of the frame). The bright/worn spots on the frame rails ought to be shiny and wet to the touch in a lubed pistol, but not so wet that the oil runs and drips off the frame, runs all over, etc.

Sometimes, if I'm going to be carrying ad using the gun in a harsh outside environment for an extended period (Coastal air and constant temperature changes, heavy humidity, etc) I'll mix a light slurry of a synthetic oil and synthetic grease, so it stays put better, doesn't thin out, wick away, etc. (An old habit from my 1911 days.)

The factory recommended replacing the recoil & mag springs either every 5000 rounds fired, or every 5 years of service use (loaded, holstered), whichever came first. They said that was a conservative recommendation. Since I was carrying and shooting a lot of +P+ & +P loads in my 3rd gen's, I was a bit more conservative and tried to replace the recoil spring sooner than 5000rds (2500-3000rds) in my issued 6906 and personally owned 3913, since the higher pressure loads can accelerate normal wear & tear. I've found that my mag springs seem to provide longer service if I replace the recoil spring a bit more often.

 

[JohnHL]

OK, guys.

You win.

I'll throw in the towel.

The O.P. noticed something that concerned him and I and others noticed burrs or peening on the barrel lugs, especially the right side.

I didn't suggest the pistol was a grenade or that the shooter should be wearing a suit of armor.

Just that it doesn't look right and I'd like to know more before I say it's normal.

Between complete pistols, parts kits, slide assemblies, and unattached barrels, I probably personally only have about 50 or 60.

And that doesn't include other peoples pistols I've examined and hundreds of pictures on the web.

I've never seen that kid of peening or "sloppy machining" on a barrel, ever.

But I'll defer to the claimed greater experience of others and wish the O.P., good luck...

John

 

[Fastbolt]

OK, guys.

You win.

I'll throw in the towel.

The O.P. noticed something that concerned him and I and others noticed burrs or peening on the barrel lugs, especially the right side.

I didn't suggest the pistol was a grenade or that the shooter should be wearing a suit of armor.

Just that it doesn't look right and I'd like to know more before I say it's normal.

Between complete pistols, parts kits, slide assemblies, and unattached barrels, I probably personally only have about 50 or 60.

And that doesn't include other peoples pistols I've examined and hundreds of pictures on the web.

I've never seen that kid of peening or "sloppy machining" on a barrel, ever.

But I'll defer to the claimed greater experience of others and wish the O.P., good luck...

John

Hey, don't feel so alone. I'm nobody's expert, either, although I have been involved in observing and helping to maintain and repair 500-odd early 3rd gen guns, and then later an equal number of late production TSW's (replacing the older guns), and the assorted personally-owned ones brought to my attention. Not the largest group sampling, to be sure, but enough to make me feel confident the things I was being told in armorer training, and by the pistol repair guys at the factory, were what we were seeing in our guns.

I often called someone I knew at the factory to ask about these sort of things (sometimes sending pics), and asked the various folks teaching the armorer classes over the years about such things.

The burrs left from manufacturing are things that may sometimes require addressing by a repair tech, or an agency armorer, especially in aluminum framed guns. I'd not be so quick to deburr some things when it came to steel-on-steel contact points (unless it involved sliding or pivoting parts, of course, where interference with normal functioning may result). Steel-on-aluminum situations? The steel usually wins.

The raised burr under that one side of the barrel, at the end? A smith or armorer could dress that in 30-60 seconds, or less, with a red stone. The very slight burred edge raised along the opposite side? A couple or three strokes with a stone. No power tools.

Yes, it would've been nice if the technician assembling and fitting that pistol (extractor and sear release lever usually need some fitting) had taken the time to knock those things down. It is what it is, though.

However, these burred spots are the kind of things that you don't want to practice the "fix it till it's broke" philosophy.

 

[JohnHL]

Fastbolt, if'n you say them burrs have been there since the day it left the factory, then I'll take your word for it.

John

 

[Fastbolt]

Oh, BTW, that pic of my 4013TSW? I remember when it concerned me at the time. Fortunately, one of the factory guys was at our agency teaching one of our update classes, and I had a chance to bring it in to show him. He said in his opinion it was normal, and that he had a couple of 4003TSW's with the same or more wear in the same spots ... and his guns had been showing that amount of wear for the last several thousands of rounds apiece, since they the 3rd gen .40's he used for weekend competitive shooting.

Now, I've presently got a CS45, my own personal gun, which is starting to exhibit some deformation of the R/side frame camming should. It's always had the usual "chewing" in the front of the cam cut, but now the top is starting show some lifting at the front of cam surface. Eventual work-hardening of aluminum, and some deformation shifting of the metal from the barrel lug slamming down and against it? Dunno.


Since everyone I knew at the factory who had years of experience in building and repairing these guns has since retired, I'm not sure who I can send any pics to, to ask about it. I can't say how long it's been like that, for sure, either, as I only noticed it under the bright light of the magnifying lamp while cleaning it at my bench a while back.

I've tried to estimate how many rounds I've fired through it since I bought it in '99, but it's difficult because I don't log round counts. I just kept running guesstimates of use based upon remembering how much I was shooting the various guns each month, box & case-wise, so to speak. The first year I owned that CS45 I think I flew by 2500rds in familiarization shooting. Since then it's been my frequent 'range beater' .45, too. Sometimes more than other times, over the course of a year. If I had to guess, I'd put the round count at somewhere between 15,000-25,000+/- rounds.

Well, I remember a repair tech explaining that we'd see more shiny wear on the steel frames of our 4566TSW's (and aluminum wear on the 4513TSW's) on one side, than the other, due to the way the barrel torques to resist the bullet's passage and drops down onto the top of the frame. He said the barrel would hit a bit harder on one side ... and I think it was the R/side? If so, that might explain why the R/side cam lug cut is starting to lift a bit. It was being hit harder by the R/side barrel cam surface?

So, I guess the question is when will the wear reach the point where it interferes with unlocking and locking, and the overall "timing" of the extraction, ejection and then feeding & chambering parts of the cycle of operation? I was told that if the cycle of operation reaches the point where manually cycling the slide exhibited roughness, like gravel being in it, due to the uneven engagement and release of the barrel from the frame cam cuts, the aluminum frame has reached the end of its service life.

A good friend - another S&W armorer from a nearby agency - had that happen with his hard-used 4013 (single stack .40 on the .45 frame). he sent it back to the factory and they told him they didn't have anymore 4013 frames, so they offered him a replacement of another model of similar value. Maybe if mine reaches the point where functioning is affected I'll contact S&W and see what they say. I wouldn't mind a Shield 40, as that's on our state's stupid Roster (the .45 isn't, since it's a newer model that wasn't in production when the Shield 9/40 models were added to the Roster just in time to mist being affected by the micro-stamping requirement that was ordered enacted by AG Harris in early 2013. Sigh.

Anyway, I'll post a couple pics of the CS45 and the cam cuts in the frame, just for entertainment purpose. I have a 4513TW that I ordered and bought at approx the same time as the CS45, but it doesn't exhibit the same deformation of the R/side cam cut. Of course, it's both a larger gun, with longer nested recoil springs, with less violent recoil/cycling ... and I haven't made the same effort to wear it out. (I used my issued 4513TSW for that for several years. )

The pics:
Left side (normal)


Right side (slight lifting of front)



The edges appear even when viewed from the top (notice the heavy marking from the barrel dropping onto the top of the frame on each side, though, which has been happening for more than 20 years of shooting)


I'll probably back off a bit on my efforts to wear it out as a range beater/retirement weapon.

Might wait until - if? - the frame wear reaches the point where cycling appears to be affected, and then send the pics (and the gun, if they'll look at it), and see if they'll replace it with something else, since I'm the original owner and it was a LE gun, and now a retired LE gun. Who knows?

 

[Fastbolt]

Fastbolt, if'n you say them burrs have been there since the day it left the factory, then I'll take your word for it.

John

I've seen a lot of machining "rolled" burrs (build up from cutters), and simply unfinished sharp burred edges over time.

Do you have another thought of how the steel could acquire those artifacts, other than being caused by contact with a softer aluminum frame? Those spots are where the cutters could leave things.

I've seen worse left on both steel and aluminum forgings from machining in NIB 3rd gens. Probably why they taught armorers to dress burrs if they found them (in critical spots), and give us a couple types of files and a red stone in the old armorer kits.

The trick (if there is one) is to figure out what's actually needed to address a potential functioning issue, versus just wanting to scratch some itch about cosmetics (which isn't a concern in issued duty weapons, since they acquire a lot of "cosmetic artifacts" during their service lives ). BTDT. Made the mistakes and learned from them.

 

[Fastbolt]

BTW folks, BMCM is the smith and machinist. I'm just a retired, retread armorer of a previous time. I'd give a lot of consideration to BMCM's thoughts and opinions.

 

[18DAI]

Thanks Fastbolt! An education as always!

Your CS45 looks about like my 4513TSW. Well used, but not abused.

My camming shoulders have their edges intact. So far! And I have enough recoil springs to last me till retirement.

I second your thoughts on BMCM! Regards 18DAI

 

[GaryS]

When I have a chance, I'll post a couple of pictures of my 3913TSW. I took a quick look at it and it appears to have been very lightly used. Which may or may not have some value to the thread.

 

[1ActuaL3]

Man I'm glad this post got so much attention! Aside from learning how to deal with the original issue, I'm also learning a great amount about wear and tear on these fine pistols in general. Once I get back I'll post some more photos and hopefully can get enough angles of the working parts. Appreciate everyone's contributions to the discussion, it has made much more confident both in this 3953TSW and Smith & Wesson's craftsmanship.

 

[JohnHL]

I've seen a lot of machining "rolled" burrs (build up from cutters), and simply unfinished sharp burred edges over time.

Do you have another thought of how the steel could acquire those artifacts, other than being caused by contact with a softer aluminum frame?

I don't know...

Can you tell me why my high carbon steel ax gets dull when all I use it for is chopping softer wood?

The barrel steel on these pistols is a much softer alloy than ax blade steel.

And work hardened aluminum is much harder than firewood.

Also, it's curious that the damage is on the right hand side, right where the S&W Repair Technician told you it would be.

Like I said, it doesn't look right to me.

I didn't say I know what caused it, only that it justified further investigation.

Maybe the O.P. should send some pictures to the S&W Repair Department and ask them.

Either that or depend on the assumed infallibility of some members of this Forum.

Good luck!

John