3rd Gen Smith's...or where the hell was I?

[DanHend]

Guys, I'm still trying to figure this out myself. I've done some lurking here in the past, but I mostly stick to Sigforum. I started a thread over there about the same thing, so I thought I'd share it here and hopefully get some answers to some questions I couldn't over there.

Recent story is I wanted a stainless 9mm. I had a P229, but prices are a lot higher than I wanted to pay for a stainless Sig (~$1,000) and very, very, very few of those were used. At that rate, I would quickly run out of money.

My first conquest was a 5906TSW that was a PD trade in. Cost about $450. As soon as fondle the gun, I feel the solidness that the P226 and P229 didn't really have with the alloy frames. I love the 4" barrel length it gave, and I absolutely love the front checkered front strap. That was the #1 reason I went after the TSW model.

Last week, I found a 4566TSW on sale, this one had dim night sights and 3 mags vs 2 that the 9mm came with. I haven't shot it yet, but after fondling it, I really wonder why S&W has just stopped making these. I know they're heavy, but Sig seems to be making some big bucks on metal framed guns.

Even models like the 5904TSW alloy models are commanding the same price as their stainless brothers.

The few common elements that I love about both are:

1) Novak Sights. I love these sights. I wouldn't mind seeing a Novak "Straight-8" site, but that's about the only thing that could be improved. I know the newer ones have the front half cut down so you could rack the slide on one-handed drills, but it still doesn't affect sight picture.

2) Slide Safety. I though I would hate them just like the ones on the Beretta 92. That and the only 5906 I had shot previously had the ugly adjustable sights that I can not stand. This one I actually don't mind. I would prefer it frame mounted like either a 1911/USP or like the P22X decocker. I do like that I don't have to adjust my grip in order to use them. All of it is within thumb distance and snaps into place whereas with the 92 series, it's a little bit of a thumb wrestle.

3) Trigger! Both guns feel similar so I'm pretty sure they haven't had trigger jobs on them. The DA pull is easily the best DA pull I've ever had on a handgun. It's even better than my X5 Allround that had a trigger job. It feels like it's 6-8 lbs instead of 12 lbs. The SA trigger is one of the most impressive SA triggers I've shot and are on par the Sig P22X and the usual suspects (but not close to my X5 Allround).

4) Grips. This was E2 almost 25 years before we got it (and I really like the E2 Sig grips). Minor question on this, but is there any other grips for these guns that don't massively fatten up the grip like the Hogue Wood grips do?

So why were these so forgotten? I promise you, a P220ST is not $450 better than the 4566TSW (used prices). I know during some of the time that their masters had sold out to the Andrew Cuomo and the Clintons.

How much was price a factor? On the used market right now, the Alloy guns are going for the same as the Steel guns. Even among the "forgotten" guns, I still can't find pricing data on the Alloy framed guns. I know that the Stainless versions were about $150-$200 more than the Stainless Sigs, but no store near me stocked any of the Alloy guns except the Value Line.

Anyway, for the prices that are out there for a basic 5906, everybody owes it to themselves to buy at least 1 5909/6909 to experience the sensation of these.

And I know "pics or it didn't happen," so here's a very quick shot:



Now if someone could just point me towards a reasonable priced 4006TSW, I'd like to complete the set. I still can't find a 4026 KCPD model anywhere that wasn't a 4 year old closed auction.

 

[epj]

Your set won't be complete without a 10XX in addition to the 40XX.

 

[loeman]

Very interesting Dan. Thanks for sharing your your thoughts and perceptions on your 3rd Gens. I found them very interesting and informative, especially since I do not own any alloy 3rd Gens. You are so right regarding dollars spent vs. value received. It's getting harder but The 3rd Gen Smiths can still often be found at almost cheap prices. I like Sigs (I own 3) but I am not going to buy anymore unless I just stumble onto a sweet deal. I can get so much more for my $$$ in S&W.

Regarding grips/stocks, I do like the Hogue rubber. I have them on my 4006 and 4506. They especially work well on the 4506. Also, like you I do not like the adjustable sights. I would prefer my 5906 had a version of the fixed sights. All of my S&W fixed sight guns (both revolvers and semis) work perfectly for me.

Since my all steel 3rd Gens are all range and field guns the extra weight does not bother me. I guess it's just the opposite. I love to feel the heft and solidness when I pick them up. That being said, I would definitely be open to purchase a nice single stack, alloy 9mm, 3rd Gen. Not sure what the model number would be for such a gun, but I'm sure it exists.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Alright!

Congrats and welcome to the club! There's no hope for you now!

I really like the 3rd gens as well for both range and carry. (I'm up to two in five months and that's only because school bills are taking priority.)

The Aluminum framed ones do seem to cost the same except for the blued non TSW ones like the 5904's and 3914's.

Also don't over look the value line guns, I've shot a 457 some and for $500 LNIB I'd be happy to buy one as a truck or carry gun.

You owe it to yourself to try and pick up a PC 3rd gen at around $1000 they are as much a deal as the TSW's are for $450. My Shorty 45 MK2 is amazing, it's like getting a Wilson Combat 1911 for a grand!

Just because we all like photos, here's my Shorty 45 MK2 and 4567. (The duo tone version of your 4566.)

 

[timn8er]

Very interesting Dan. Thanks for sharing your your thoughts and perceptions on your 3rd Gens. I found them very interesting and informative, especially since I do not own any alloy 3rd Gens. You are so right regarding dollars spent vs. value received. It's getting harder but The 3rd Gen Smiths can still often be found at almost cheap prices. I like Sigs (I own 3) but I am not going to buy anymore unless I just stumble onto a sweet deal. I can get so much more for my $$$ in S&W.

Regarding grips/stocks, I do like the Hogue rubber. I have them on my 4006 and 4506. They especially work well on the 4506. Also, like you I do not like the adjustable sights. I would prefer my 5906 had a version of the fixed sights. All of my S&W fixed sight guns (both revolvers and semis) work perfectly for me.

Since my all steel 3rd Gens are all range and field guns the extra weight does not bother me. I guess it's just the opposite. I love to feel the heft and solidness when I pick them up. That being said, I would definitely be open to purchase a nice single stack, alloy 9mm, 3rd Gen. Not sure what the model number would be for such a gun, but I'm sure it exists.

I believe you are looking for a 3906 or 3904, but they are steel framed. The 3913 fits your criteria, but it's DAO.

CORRECTION: I don't know what I was thinking, but I got it wrong. The 3913 is TDA, not DAO. Sorry for the misinformation!

 

[handlebar]

How about a 6906 to add to that collection.

 

[TTSH]

Congrats and welcome to the club! There's no hope for you now!

Yep! Welcome to the addiction... opps, I meant the CLUB! Yeah, that's it, the CLUB!

 

[Big Cholla]

I'm with the OP in all aspects of the '3rd Gens.' Apple Pie, Flatheads and S&W 3rds. FOR EVER!

Darn! I just gave myself a nostalgic twinge. While in high school, I had a '46 Ford Pickup with the Flathead V-8. My Dad and I built a twin exhaust system out of 2"dia. water pipe with NO mufflers. What a great sound. I should never have let that old truck go. .......... Big Cholla

 

[Bartman3562]

I believe you are looking for a 3906 or 3904, but they are steel framed. The 3913 fits your criteria, but it's DAO.

The 3913 is not DOA, that would be the 3953. 3913 is TDA.

 

[GaryS]

The 3rd generation guns are not forgotten by those who own them, although sometimes it seems that S&W has developed 3rd gen amnesia.

My first one was a LNIB 5906. Great shooter, but very heavy to carry. After that it was a number of years before I bought another. A friend of mine had a 6906 that I always wanted. I made him promise to sell it to me if he ever got rid of it. Unfortunately, he has a memory like a sieve so he ended up trading for something else. It took a few more years before I found a LNIB one at a very reasonable price.

I carried that for personal protection until discovered the 3914/3913 guns. The perfect balance of reliability, concealability, accuracy, and other positive attributes.

Why did S&W abandon the line except for a few large LE agencies that can arm twist them into making new ones?

Money. Thank Gaston Glock for that. S&W has long depended on the lucrative and large LE market for the bulk of sales. Glock cut into that and as a result Smith developed a series of different polymer framed guns to compete.

Oh, and the on going popularity of 1911 style guns contributed.

Much of S&Ws forging capacity goes to making 1911 frames and slides for the 1911 and M&P guns.

Too bad, because if they continued to make the 4513 and the 3913, they'd sell a lot of them. Of course that means that M&P compacts in 9 and 45 would sit on store shelves.

 

[epj]

The 3rd generation guns are not forgotten by those who own them, although sometimes it seems that S&W has developed 3rd gen amnesia.

My first one was a LNIB 5906. Great shooter, but very heavy to carry. After that it was a number of years before I bought another. A friend of mine had a 6906 that I always wanted. I made him promise to sell it to me if he ever got rid of it. Unfortunately, he has a memory like a sieve so he ended up trading for something else. It took a few more years before I found a LNIB one at a very reasonable price.

I carried that for personal protection until discovered the 3914/3913 guns. The perfect balance of reliability, concealability, accuracy, and other positive attributes.

Why did S&W abandon the line except for a few large LE agencies that can arm twist them into making new ones?

Money. Thank Gaston Glock for that. S&W has long depended on the lucrative and large LE market for the bulk of sales. Glock cut into that and as a result Smith developed a series of different polymer framed guns to compete.

Oh, and the on going popularity of 1911 style guns contributed.

Much of S&Ws forging capacity goes to making 1911 frames and slides for the 1911 and M&P guns.

Too bad, because if they continued to make the 4513 and the 3913, they'd sell a lot of them. Of course that means that M&P compacts in 9 and 45 would sit on store shelves.

I'd like to agree. But, one factor here is cost. The gen3 guns were not cheap to start with. We now think of most of them as $4-500 guns. Back in the day, the TSW models were double that if I recall correctly. If S&W were to make these guns today, I suspect most all models would be priced north of $1000. The standard E series 1911 is priced around $800. Can't see them being any cheaper than that for sure. I don't know if I'd spend that kind of money on a gen 3. At $400 and less, I've bought quite a few of them.

 

[Jaymo]

All I know is my $389 lightly used 4566 with dim night sights is a lot more gun for the money than my $400 ATI 1911.
I like my ATI 1911 (Commander sized) a lot.
I like my 4566 better.

BTW, the Hogue rubber grips on a 4566 feel about the same as the factory grips on a 5906, thickness wise.
They feel a lot better to me than the narrow stock grip.
The Hogue rubber grip on a 5906 is too thick for my paw.

 

[TTSH]

I'd like to agree. But, one factor here is cost. The gen3 guns were not cheap to start with. We now think of most of them as $4-500 guns. Back in the day, the TSW models were double that if I recall correctly. If S&W were to make these guns today, I suspect most all models would be priced north of $1000. The standard E series 1911 is priced around $800. Can't see them being any cheaper than that for sure. I don't know if I'd spend that kind of money on a gen 3. At $400 and less, I've bought quite a few of them.

I think they could do it (i.e., bring back at least some 3rd Gens as "special editions", etc.), but they won't. The 1911 "me too" stuff aside, management has bet the farm on highly-profitable plastic and too bad if we don't like it. Best we can do is buy whatever top condition used 3rd Gens we can find and be happy we can still do that before prices continue up right through the roof.

Living in MA, I probably wouldn't be able to buy a special edition 3rd Gen anyway. S&W would probably not spend the money to put it on the MA-approved handguns roster. And even if they did, the MA-compliant triggers would likely be totally awful.

 

[GaryS]

I think there is a market for 3rd gen style guns. Sig makes some and they seem to sell. Sig makes some polymer framed guns, but most of theirs are metal. Beretta seems to do well making metal guns.

I limited my thought on reintroduction to two single stack versions of the 3rd gen guns. I think the law enforcement ship has sailed on them except for the few agencies that still use them and for which S&W provides support.

I know that this will cause the vapors among some people, but the 3rd generation guns are far superior to the 1911. I have never owned a 1911 and don't have any plans to.

I know that S&W makes a lot of money on AR and 1911 style guns, as well as the M&P guns, but I think they could find a market for the two 3rd gen guns I mention. They won't, but they could.

I'd like to agree. But, one factor here is cost. The gen3 guns were not cheap to start with. We now think of most of them as $4-500 guns. Back in the day, the TSW models were double that if I recall correctly. If S&W were to make these guns today, I suspect most all models would be priced north of $1000. The standard E series 1911 is priced around $800. Can't see them being any cheaper than that for sure. I don't know if I'd spend that kind of money on a gen 3. At $400 and less, I've bought quite a few of them.

 

[GaryS]

The Hogue wrap around grip on my 6906 makes it the best fitting hand gun I own. I only wish that they had made them for 9mm compact guns.

All I know is my $389 lightly used 4566 with dim night sights is a lot more gun for the money than my $400 ATI 1911.
I like my ATI 1911 (Commander sized) a lot.
I like my 4566 better.

BTW, the Hogue rubber grips on a 4566 feel about the same as the factory grips on a 5906, thickness wise.
They feel a lot better to me than the narrow stock grip.
The Hogue rubber grip on a 5906 is too thick for my paw.

 

[Jaymo]

^ As always, YMMV.
We all have different hand sizes.
What feels great to one, is not right for another.

I think most of us can probably agree on the .45 grip.
It's very thin.

The reason the Hogue 5906/6906 grip doesn't work for me is because it makes the grip too thick for my finger length.
Someone with long fingers will probably find it to be perfect for them.

On a 5906, the straight back grip works best for me.
On a 5946, the arched works best for me, although the straight would be good too.

On a 3906???????? Dunno. Don't have one. Haven't found one I could afford. It's not like they come up for sale every day.
Shame they didn't make them longer than they did. I always like the look and premise of it.

A 3rd gen Smith is a lot of gun, especially for the money.
I love 1911s, but Smith sold a LOT of 3rd gen guns.
They must have been doing something right.

 

[SMSgt]

I took the Hogue grips off my 4566. Couldn't reach the trigger. The straight plactics fit me much better.

 

[Jaymo]

What about Hogue Handall on the 9mm Compact?

 

[k22fan]

One of the reasons why S&W couldn’t sell enough 3rd generation autos to continue cataloging them was that it was risky for retailers to stock them. During the 1990s it was common to see police surplus 3rd generation autos for $300 to $400 while new models with similar MSR prices retailed for $550 to $600. A retailer bought a new one at the risk that a large PD would flood their market with the same model leaving their new gun very unlikely to sell. Floods of surplus will continue to diminish but there are so many used examples of the common 3rd generation models that very few buyers would pay for new ones.

[...] I would definitely be open to purchase a nice single stack, alloy 9mm, 3rd Gen. Not sure what the model number would be for such a gun, but I'm sure it exists.

3904 was the blued single stack 4" TDA 9mm. Available with both fixed and adjustable sights it was essentially the most modernized model 39. There was no equivalent aluminum framed stainless pistol but but but the sub-compact 3 1/2" aluminum framed stainless TDA 3913 and DAO 3953 are common.

 

[James&theGiant1911]

The p229 and I have a SAS 229 in .357 is a solid piece of metal, the p228 is stamped (slide). Sig makes some good firearms, used LEO 3rd gens can make good options but just because they are less money does not make them better. The Sig .357 round is a little bit better than a standard 9mm on par with S&W 40 calibers.