.40 vs 9mm

My completely unscientific take on calibers is that...excepting situations like an assailant high on dope where he feels nothing or wearing body armor...double- or triple-tapping him center mass will more than likely stop the assault...regardess of whether it's a .38, .357, 9mm, .40, 10mm or .45. I believe it's peripheral hits rather than center mass will be where the larger bore calibers will make a difference...they will hurt more.

Now I'm going down the rabbit hole of momentum theory vs. velocity theory here. Getting hit by any of the above will hurt and stop someone...and any of the above can also not stop someone. Every situation is different...every person is different in how they absorb bullets and do or don't keep going.

The best you can do is put the rounds where they count the most...assess and reengage if necessary. One thing we've been taught that in the real world...not controlled lab situations...is that you can do everything right and it can still turn to feces on you and you can still die.
exactly--I'll say it again, a mediocre weapon in trained, motivated hands is better than a great weapon in untrained and/or unmotivated hands = not so much the weapon as it is the user
...an Israeli pilot was asked, after they just had about an 80 - 0 kill ratio in Operation Mole Cricket, what would have happened if they had the Russian airplanes and vice versa-- he said, more or less, it's the pilot/training that really counts, not the aircraft
 
And now that they are going to the 6.8 X 51 mm:

Less ammo carried
Less ammo in mag
More expensive
More recoil
Heavier gun*
But better at longer ranges. Question is will we need that capability?

IMHO the long range thing is a red herring. It's all about body armor penetration at any range, not hitting skinny insurgents wearing a sheet across open desert. There are some interesting videos out of the Ukraine conflict that show just how effective modern body armor has become in stopping intermediate rounds like 5.54x39, 7.62x39, and, I would guess, 5.56x45.
 
And now that they are going to the 6.8 X 51 mm:

Less ammo carried
Less ammo in mag
More expensive
More recoil
Heavier gun*
But better at longer ranges. Question is will we need that capability?
what weapon is that you are referring to?
 
My favorite .40 shooting was at an unnamed Indian reservation in the wild west. A drunk guy with a knife was banging on his sweetie’s door demanding some private time. Instead he got “Donna”, a 20 year veteran of the tribal PD. Fellas, there is no tougher creature on earth than a middle-aged female tribal cop.

She says drop it, he throws the knife (which actually sticks in the toe of her boot), then immediately realizes the error of his ways and turns just as Donna lets fly 180 grains of goodness. The bullet hits him in his right manboob, exits and draws a red line to the left manboob, perforates that one, and sails merrily on its way. He drops like a rock, dead. He thinks. Donna cuffs him and calls the ambo. He basically got four sets of a couple stitches each and a ride to jail.

She was a hoot. She was having a smoke behind the wheel of her tribal rig when I got there. It was raining a little but her window was down as a nod to the no smoking policy. I asked how she was doing and she tossed out the butt and rolled up the window while she was looking at me. Tough old gal.

I don't laugh out loud at these stories very often but I did at this one. The more I thought about it, the funnier it got. I knew an FBI bomb guy in New York City that had a sense of humor like this. One of the funniest guys I ever met!
 
And now that they are going to the 6.8 X 51 mm:

Less ammo carried
Less ammo in mag
More expensive
More recoil
Heavier gun*
But better at longer ranges. Question is will we need that capability?
ok, I'm seeing the Sig Sauer rifle? XM5?
..we were taught the standard battle distance was 300m or less...we used the old M16A1 amd A2...no optics at all .....iron sights..so in battle conditions, it would be very hard to get kill shots at 300m...yes, at 500y, I hit 10 out of 10 on a man sized target with iron sights with the A1 max effective range of 460y--but that was in the prone, tight sling, taking our time, etc
....but I see in Afghanistan, battle distances were longer ....so, maybe they do need more range
 
sounds like when the military went from 7.62 to 5.56:
more ammo carried
more ammo in mag
less expensive
less recoil
just as deadly with proper training, etc

Except now 5.56 is getting phased out in favor of the latest whiz-bang rifle cartridge 6.8x41 SPC, which splits the difference between 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 NATO, sound familiar?

I wonder what will replace 9mm next? .30 Super Carry?
 
Except now 5.56 is getting phased out in favor of the latest whiz-bang rifle cartridge 6.8x41 SPC, which splits the difference between 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 NATO, sound familiar?

I wonder what will replace 9mm next? .30 Super Carry?
...technology keeps advancing ..
 
A 9mm will get the job done and is cheaper and more available than .40. I sure would not want to get shot with a 9mm!
 
...technology keeps advancing ..

I wouldn't really call it an advancement in technology, really... It's still just another brass cartridge filled with gunpowder that launches a lead projectile at lethal velocity.

A variation of technology which has been in use since the mid 1800s.

Heck, whether it is an advancement of any kind whatsoever remains to be seen.

A 9mm will get the job done and is cheaper and more available than .40. I sure would not want to get shot with a 9mm!

To be fair, the same could be said of .22LR.
 
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The 9mm is being rediscovered by police (it mostly was beaten out by the 40 from the early '90s) because it's cheaper to train with (both ammo cost and mild report/recoil). The 9mm miracle bullet nonsense is intended for marketing.

I have a few boxes of 2022 'LE Only' Hornady Critical Duty #90225. It is pretty much indistinguishable in terminal performance on jackrabbits and coyotes from the Super WhizBang JHPs of the past 30 years, with the cool-looking red ball in the hollow point notwithstanding.

100% agree! I've been handloading all calibers for 50 years and worked up many a 9mm "performance load" along with others, and the magical, miracle load is basically the one being served up to the public who for the most part have no way of knowing one way or the other.
Go on over the Lucky Gunner and you'll quickly see that for every load the flattens to a dime, there are many others that barely deform the hollow nose - clearly not every load is superior. More importantly is that gelatin shots are representative of relative performance, not absolute performance. A closer rendering would be shooting into human torso profiles composed of gelatin with skeleton inserts and simulated organs to to better watch as many 9mm loads go streaking right on through a relatively "flat" human from front to back - expanded or not.
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist....well, an almost as great of a trick is the cartridge industry profiteering off politically motivated government decisions and an eager public shelling out $40/20 for magical ammo versus $15/50 for "completely ineffective, range ammo, totally worthless for self defense!" Yeah? Tell that to all the dead people created by 9mm ball over the last 115 years! I guarantee you it's a lot more than have been "humanely" put down by magic bullets in the post-40S&W era.

The failure of the 9mm was due to poor marksmanship - many more misses than hits, and a transverse impact that had to pass through the upper arm, into the chest, and skidded to a halt against the Pericardium. Had that one, expanded 9mm slug managed to punch through the heart, the miscreant almost certainly would have gone down long before he was finally taken out by a hail of .38 slugs to the face. The problem with the 9mm is it really ISN'T powerful enough to deliver reliable penetration during off-axis hits when using expanding bullets. Non-expanding it's great at penetrating and as I keep trying to remind people, a bullet that goes all the way through went all the way through everything in between! A bullet that doesn't exit you have no idea at what point it decided to call it quits but Murphy's Law reminds us all the time that point is usually the worst one for the shooter!
The bottom line of low-power handgun rounds is that a hit to a non-vital spot with an expanding bullet is no more effective than a hit with a "ball" round. A hit to a vital spot with a ball round is no less effective than a hit with an expanding bullet. I know the general public has been deceived into believing that expanding bullets create magical lacerations that aid bleed out, but that ignores the salient facts of how the human body is structured and WHY it is so structured! It's also based on a false representation that low power expanding bullets perform on par with high velocity, solid, magnum handgun bullets - they do not.

So the .40S&W was one of the few "evidence based" cartridge design decisions in history. It was designed to do exactly what the 9mm HP failed to do - go deep enough to reliably penetrate far enough to ensure damage. Paul Harrel has an excellent video recreating a closely as possible the original 9mm failure strike on a "meat target" followed by the same test using a .40S&W. The results are nothing less than obvious to anyone not blinded by bias. The modern expanding 9mm round stopped just outside the plastic bag (pericardium) surrounding a chicken breast (heart) inside the simulated rib cage. The expanding .40 round punched through the simulated heart - off-axis impact after passing through the "arm", and two stopped just shy of exiting, with one exiting.

I'm sure proponents of the FBI's politically motivated regression to the 9mm will tell you to believe the propaganda, NOT your "lyin' eyes." Clearly many do. If I hadn't shot a great many living creatures over the years to see first-hand what does what, I might believe it too...after all, a 9mm round certainly stops a paper target just as well as a .40.

Bottom line, any way you slice it, the .40S&W is the BETTER cartridge for antipersonnel use, and easily shades the 9mm by as much as 100fpe in certain loads in non-+P loads.

And not every LEA dumped the .40 like a trail of baby elephants following momma. I happen to work for one extremely large State agency that still issues the Glock 22 which gives up just 11% capacity, easily solved by adding a +2 base for those so inclined.

The real "advance" in ballistic performance has been how cops are trained to shoot...as in start shooting and KEEP SHOOTING until the threat is down! With that approach, indeed the 9mm is a solid performer as long as most of those slugs count - same for the .40S&W.
 
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sounds like when the military went from 7.62 to 5.56:
more ammo carried
more ammo in mag
less expensive
less recoil
just as deadly with proper training, etc

and yet they are moving to 6.8 because the 5.56 runs out of steam too soon.
 
I always hear the comment that bullet design improvement has made 9mm more viable for SD. I agree, I think it has.

Have the very same improvements bolstered 40S&W and 45Auto terminal effectiveness as well? I believe the answer is also, yes.

If you prefer to carry 9mm, vaya con Dios.

However, don't try to sell me the nonsense that with similar velocity a smaller projectile is going to be equal to or better than a larger projectile.
 
It is a perpetual debate between fast-and-light vs slow-and-heavy. Both make holes, but the ability to penetrate tough obstacles favors the latter. I think the present trend to 9 mm is based more on 50% greater magazine capacity than effectiveness.

That said, I appreciate the cost savings of 9 mm over .40SW and .45ACP for range time.
 
and yet they are moving to 6.8 because the 5.56 runs out of steam too soon.

5.56 "runs out of steam" because the militaries of the world keep wanting to use it in weapons where the barrel is too short for the round.

We've all read the tales of 5.56 failing in the various sandboxes against skinny insurgents high on meth and so full of oxys them haven't hit the latrine in a week. BUT, they are not the reason 6.8x51 has come along. The 6.8 is all about the getting through the body armor of "possible peer opponents". There are some intriguing videos out of the Ukraine conflict showing just how effective modern body armor has become against 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 rounds.

I have no doubt that over the last 40-50 years some oddball testing branch of the government has been quietly acquiring body armor from around the world and seeing how well it works. I suspect that as long ago as the 2003 Iraq invasion they raised flags indicating trouble, if only because of the number of our troops walking away from multiple hits with common intermediate rounds.
 
The 10mm and later the 40 S&W were based on the 38-40 introduced by Winchester in 1874. It was known as a real man-stopper back then.
 
...an Israeli pilot was asked, after they just had about an 80 - 0 kill ratio in Operation Mole Cricket, what would have happened if they had the Russian airplanes and vice versa-- he said, more or less, it's the pilot/training that really counts, not the aircraft

When the Israeli's got the first F-16's, the first thing they did was bolt $10 rear view mirrors from the auto store in the cockpits so they didn't have to lurch from side to side to see behind them in a dog fight.
The USAF instructors who were training the Israeli pilots thought it was a brilliant idea so sent it up the ladder to have the F-16's retrofitted with look behind mirrors.
General Dynamics, builder of the F-16 was glad to accomodate the request - at $3000 per.
 
IMHO the long range thing is a red herring. It's all about body armor penetration at any range, not hitting skinny insurgents wearing a sheet across open desert. There are some interesting videos out of the Ukraine conflict that show just how effective modern body armor has become in stopping intermediate rounds like 5.54x39, 7.62x39, and, I would guess, 5.56x45.

When my SWCC buddy, and his battle buddy were attached to USMC patrols going outside the wire, they were sent as heavy weaponry specialists. One manned the MK19 on a hmmv turret, and the the other had a restocked and worked over M14 set up as a sniping rifle by the National Match competition teams' armorers. 5.56 was just about useless beyone 400 meters. The M2 wasn't accurate enough. But a suppressed 7.62 was just right.
 
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