Bought a couple of guns at a garage sale on Saturday. One was a rust bucket early Winchester 69 that cleaned up pretty well. But the one that caused this thread in an Uberti SAA in 44-40. Never loaded for this round and need a bit of help. Got some factory jacketed ammo(one box of Win) and a box of reloads with lead bullets. Got dies and a couple boxes of new brass also. The questions I have concern setting up the seat/crimp die. The dies have been set up and they slightly crumpled the (very) thin case mouths. What is the correct procedure for setting the crimp on this cartridge? I would also be interested in anyone's favorite loads. I have most powders and primers needed. Even have a few hundred bullets for the 44-40...Got all the stuff from the seller for 375 bucks including factory ammo in 6.5 Jap 30-30 a box of Rem 22 Hornets and even a box of 22 HiPower. The Uberti is a really pretty little piece with actual blue finish and color case frame. For the price paid I think I am going to have a little fun with this handgun...I am going to keep this one for 30 days or forever...whichever comes first..Lol
44-40 Loading Tips??
- Thread starter Skeet 028
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Them ol’ waddies did not need any fancy pants magnums to have a good time, or to shoot a rustler or critter or even a griz. There is magic in those old cartridges.
I have a Cimarron Uberti SAA in .44-40/.44 Winchester, and I load for it. I use Unique powder and home-cast 205 grain bullets sized to .429" (the largest sized bullets that can be loaded into cartridges that fit into the chambers). I crimp in a last, final step in the loading process.
That is my standard loading process, and I do not recall ruining a single .44-40 case.
That is my standard loading process, and I do not recall ruining a single .44-40 case.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
Most 44's are .429" but 44-40 is .427. My Vaquero's wouldn't chamber .429"!
44 WCF is a must to seat the bullet in one step and roll crimp the next. (Works fine in a 4 station progressive like my Dillon 550)
Up until the later 1960's, factory ammo with jacketed bullets was for rifles and usually High velocity (and high pressure!) I think after that the companies only loaded pistol ammo and marketed it both ways!
For a light load (700-725 fps) for cowboy action shooting, I used a .427" 200 gr LFN over 4.4 of Hodgdon Clays and WLP primmer. I never noticed one brand of brass being any better than the others. I just dumped it all together and loaded it in a 4 stage press. If you trimmed it you could get by with 3 stage loading, but that was too much work! This load worked great in my 2 Rugers and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy Special (14 shot, no push button safety)
Ivan
44 WCF is a must to seat the bullet in one step and roll crimp the next. (Works fine in a 4 station progressive like my Dillon 550)
Up until the later 1960's, factory ammo with jacketed bullets was for rifles and usually High velocity (and high pressure!) I think after that the companies only loaded pistol ammo and marketed it both ways!
For a light load (700-725 fps) for cowboy action shooting, I used a .427" 200 gr LFN over 4.4 of Hodgdon Clays and WLP primmer. I never noticed one brand of brass being any better than the others. I just dumped it all together and loaded it in a 4 stage press. If you trimmed it you could get by with 3 stage loading, but that was too much work! This load worked great in my 2 Rugers and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy Special (14 shot, no push button safety)
Ivan
Crimp as a separate operation and you should be fine.
I have fired many thousands of 44-40 in 20 years of SASS and have learned the following...
Take your time and make sure that the casing is going perfectly straight into the die on ALL stages.I lube the casings with Hornady One Shot Spray Lube and have done so for 20 years....because it works!
I used a factory round for my initial setup of the dies and also invested in a Wilson case gauge which has proven to be invaluable to me.
Am using a set of Redding dies that seat and crimp in one die and have had almost no problem that wasn't traced back to a casing going into the dies slightly off center. This includes making sure that the bullet is also centered up before seating.
I have used a 200 gr. RNFP bullet that I cast from a Lee 6 cavity mold and tumble lube with Alox....no problems there.
Unique and FFFg Black powder what I have used. 6 gr of Unique and the 200 gr. bullet runs perfectly in my 44-40 rifles and handguns. FFFg I fill the casing with 30 gr. which is a compressed load and runs perfectly.
My mold is a .428 diameter mold, my 44-40's are old enough that they use a .427 bore...hence the .428 bullet.
Lastly, Make sure that you are flaring the case mouth enough to accept the bullet and no more than that.
Randy
PS. feel free to PM me if you have additional questions....you can also go to the SASS Wire and do a search for the same question...there are many that love this old caliber...pay close attention to Driftwood Johnson and Garrison Joe on this topic.
Take your time and make sure that the casing is going perfectly straight into the die on ALL stages.I lube the casings with Hornady One Shot Spray Lube and have done so for 20 years....because it works!
I used a factory round for my initial setup of the dies and also invested in a Wilson case gauge which has proven to be invaluable to me.
Am using a set of Redding dies that seat and crimp in one die and have had almost no problem that wasn't traced back to a casing going into the dies slightly off center. This includes making sure that the bullet is also centered up before seating.
I have used a 200 gr. RNFP bullet that I cast from a Lee 6 cavity mold and tumble lube with Alox....no problems there.
Unique and FFFg Black powder what I have used. 6 gr of Unique and the 200 gr. bullet runs perfectly in my 44-40 rifles and handguns. FFFg I fill the casing with 30 gr. which is a compressed load and runs perfectly.
My mold is a .428 diameter mold, my 44-40's are old enough that they use a .427 bore...hence the .428 bullet.
Lastly, Make sure that you are flaring the case mouth enough to accept the bullet and no more than that.
Randy
PS. feel free to PM me if you have additional questions....you can also go to the SASS Wire and do a search for the same question...there are many that love this old caliber...pay close attention to Driftwood Johnson and Garrison Joe on this topic.
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Kiwi cop
Member
Despite having several progressive presses I reload 44/40 omgmy old Lee 3 hole Turret press to prevent case mouth damage.
I deprime/resize every case first being careful to guide them into the die with my free hand. I used to roll the cases on a lube pad but these days use a commercial spray on lube. After hand priming each case i run the rest of the reloading process in one run.
Flare and powder drop. Light flare just enough to enter the base of the 200 gn LRNFP bullet into the case. For some reason I have never damaged a case mouth other than going into the deprive/resize die or overcrimping so I could do this on one of my Pro 1000's but it is easier to change just a shell holder than a whole shell plate, and almost as fast when I get into a rhythm.
Seat the bullet onto the case separately.
Crimp the case using a factory crimp die just enough so that the bullet cannot be pushed further into the case with a firm push against the bench top.
My old load was 17.5 gn H4227 (the original, not the Mulwex/ADI AR2205 currently labelled H4227 or the IMR equivalent). Now I have settled on 5 gn Tight Group in my Uberti revolvers.
I deprime/resize every case first being careful to guide them into the die with my free hand. I used to roll the cases on a lube pad but these days use a commercial spray on lube. After hand priming each case i run the rest of the reloading process in one run.
Flare and powder drop. Light flare just enough to enter the base of the 200 gn LRNFP bullet into the case. For some reason I have never damaged a case mouth other than going into the deprive/resize die or overcrimping so I could do this on one of my Pro 1000's but it is easier to change just a shell holder than a whole shell plate, and almost as fast when I get into a rhythm.
Seat the bullet onto the case separately.
Crimp the case using a factory crimp die just enough so that the bullet cannot be pushed further into the case with a firm push against the bench top.
My old load was 17.5 gn H4227 (the original, not the Mulwex/ADI AR2205 currently labelled H4227 or the IMR equivalent). Now I have settled on 5 gn Tight Group in my Uberti revolvers.
I load it for a Colt Bisley and 2 Winchester 1873 rifles and a 92SRC.
I use 205gr commercial cast FNL bullets sized .427 & mixed brand brass.
FWIW,,I came into some of the StarLine brass and I like that stuff.
I use RedDot powder. The load is right out of the Alliant loading info. It's a light one, can 't recall it exactly right now so I won't try and guess.
Loaded on a single stage CH 'H' press.
Minimum flare to the case mouth is all that's needed so that the bullet will seat w/o shaving lead.
Too much flare to the mouth and the very thin weak edge will sometimes not turn back in place as nicely as we'd like it to when seating and crimping.
For a crimp,,a minimum crimp of the edge of the mouth of the case into the upper groove in the bullet. The brass is so thin that over crimping can sometimes just push the brass below it outwards a bit.
Just enough to lock the bullet in place from pushing backwards into the case. You should have neck tension helping you also hold it in place.
I seat and crimp in one step and have never had any problems in 40yrs of loading this, the 38-40 or 32-30.,,all said to be problem kids.
I have crumpled a case or two in loading. My mistake of running the ram up w/o having the case seated in the shell holder all the way when sizing. Hitting the edge of the bottom of the die is a death blow for the thin brass and there's really nothing you can do but blame your sad self for it.
Slow down speedy.
I use 205gr commercial cast FNL bullets sized .427 & mixed brand brass.
FWIW,,I came into some of the StarLine brass and I like that stuff.
I use RedDot powder. The load is right out of the Alliant loading info. It's a light one, can 't recall it exactly right now so I won't try and guess.
Loaded on a single stage CH 'H' press.
Minimum flare to the case mouth is all that's needed so that the bullet will seat w/o shaving lead.
Too much flare to the mouth and the very thin weak edge will sometimes not turn back in place as nicely as we'd like it to when seating and crimping.
For a crimp,,a minimum crimp of the edge of the mouth of the case into the upper groove in the bullet. The brass is so thin that over crimping can sometimes just push the brass below it outwards a bit.
Just enough to lock the bullet in place from pushing backwards into the case. You should have neck tension helping you also hold it in place.
I seat and crimp in one step and have never had any problems in 40yrs of loading this, the 38-40 or 32-30.,,all said to be problem kids.
I have crumpled a case or two in loading. My mistake of running the ram up w/o having the case seated in the shell holder all the way when sizing. Hitting the edge of the bottom of the die is a death blow for the thin brass and there's really nothing you can do but blame your sad self for it.
Slow down speedy.
Marshal Kane
Member
Trim your cases for a uniform crimp. Light crimp, just enough to roll the case mouth into the crimp groove. Heavy crimp will result in a crumpled case. Provide enough bell in the case mouth. Ensure that the bullet is aligned with the case axis then start your seating gently to allow the bullet to center itself in the case mouth. There isn't enough brass in the case mouth to help guide the bullet. A crooked bullet will bulge one side of the case mouth or crush it if the bullet isn't centered. Be patient with .44-40, speed when reloading it only increases the chance of a crushed case. I love this cartridge but it's a challenge to reload.
Marshal...that is the consensus of what I have heard on line and while talking to a local fellow who is into the older stuff. He wants the Uberti(like he needs it) cause he said he'd feel better shooting smokeless in it than his old Colt's. Told me he wants to get out of using black as much as he can. He's even older than me. How do you bell the cases? Regular die or something like an M die. I do have more than one set of Lyman 310 dies with an expander I can use in an adapter or possibly use a tong tool for expanding..
fredj338
Member
Plenty of data inthe lyman manual for 44-40. The biggest issue is the thin brass necks. You want good neck tension & a roll crimp. The ole 44-40 was made for lead bullets.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
There has always been a huge variation in bore/groove dimensions with .44-40 rifles and handguns. With revolvers this can be complicated by various combinations of chamber dimensions and forcing cones in addition to the bore dimensions. It is not unheard of for a revolver to have a cylinder with chambers measuring .426-.427 at the mouths combined with a barrel having groove diameter of .429-.431 or so; not the easiest piece to achieve satisfactory performance with.
It is best not to assume anything with a .44-40 revolver. Carefully measuring each chamber will give you some idea what you can get away with for loaded cartridge fit. Slugging the bore will let you know what to expect. For modern arms (not valuable antiques) I would seriously consider having the chambers reamed as necessary to provide a good fit to the forcing cone and bore, perhaps recutting the forcing cone if necessary.
From a reloading standpoint the .44-40 offers some challenges, primarily due to the thin case walls. I recommend:
1. carefully trimming all brass to a consistent minimum length
2. use of the Lyman M-die for case mouth expansion, allowing bullets to be seated straight and true without undue stress on the cases
3. crimping should be done as a separate operation after bullet seating.
The .44-40 is a natural for cast lead bullets and several companies offer a variety of styles, weights, and sized diameters from .426 to .432 which allows us to tailor our ammo to our individual firearms.
I load .44-40 for a 1914 vintage Colt Single Action Army Frontier Six Shooter having chamber mouths of .427 diameter (and pretty consistent) and a groove diameter of .427". Pretty easy combination to achieve good results with.
My 1905 vintage 1894 Marlin rifle has groove diameter slightly over .431", but the chamber dimensions prevent chambering a cartridge with seated bullet over .429 diameter. Not the best for accuracy.
I am still playing with combinations that will give reasonable performance with both the Colt and the Marlin, a process now in its 6th year of my experimentation. Using moderately soft lead alloy cast and sized to .427" and moderate charges of fast-burning powders (intended to "bump up" the bullets when fired in the Marlin) I have gotten 2.5 to 3.0" groups with the Colt at 50 feet, and the same loads provide groups of about 4" with the Marlin at 50 yards. I am content with these results in these two century-old firearms.
It is best not to assume anything with a .44-40 revolver. Carefully measuring each chamber will give you some idea what you can get away with for loaded cartridge fit. Slugging the bore will let you know what to expect. For modern arms (not valuable antiques) I would seriously consider having the chambers reamed as necessary to provide a good fit to the forcing cone and bore, perhaps recutting the forcing cone if necessary.
From a reloading standpoint the .44-40 offers some challenges, primarily due to the thin case walls. I recommend:
1. carefully trimming all brass to a consistent minimum length
2. use of the Lyman M-die for case mouth expansion, allowing bullets to be seated straight and true without undue stress on the cases
3. crimping should be done as a separate operation after bullet seating.
The .44-40 is a natural for cast lead bullets and several companies offer a variety of styles, weights, and sized diameters from .426 to .432 which allows us to tailor our ammo to our individual firearms.
I load .44-40 for a 1914 vintage Colt Single Action Army Frontier Six Shooter having chamber mouths of .427 diameter (and pretty consistent) and a groove diameter of .427". Pretty easy combination to achieve good results with.
My 1905 vintage 1894 Marlin rifle has groove diameter slightly over .431", but the chamber dimensions prevent chambering a cartridge with seated bullet over .429 diameter. Not the best for accuracy.
I am still playing with combinations that will give reasonable performance with both the Colt and the Marlin, a process now in its 6th year of my experimentation. Using moderately soft lead alloy cast and sized to .427" and moderate charges of fast-burning powders (intended to "bump up" the bullets when fired in the Marlin) I have gotten 2.5 to 3.0" groups with the Colt at 50 feet, and the same loads provide groups of about 4" with the Marlin at 50 yards. I am content with these results in these two century-old firearms.
Marshal Kane
Member
Skeet,
I use an M die which allows just the right amount of clearance for the bullet to drop about 1/4" into the case neck before starting to seat. Bullets align very nicely with the M die and less chance of seating the bullet off center.
I've also used a standard expander die belling enough so that the base of the bullet sits about 1/16" into the case mouth. With the standard expander die I look at the bullet front to back and side to side to set the bullet as straight as possible before gently starting to seat. As I've said, patience is required when reloading the .44-40. Also, it might be advisable to purchase a cartridge gauge for .44-40 to check your reloads to make sure they will chamber.
I shoot a Colt clone made by Uberti so it's made with modern steel. I can feel for your local fellow who doesn't want to stress his Colts with smokeless powder. Hope this answers your question. If not, get back to me.
Well I got the dies all set right and loaded about 50 44-40s. Took 'em out to the dry ground and shot them up. They shot just fine..no surprises. All went bang and no messed up cases. Wasn't in any big hurry and found that you take your time and the caliber is not all that hard to load for. I don't think I would want to load 'em on a Dillon though. Not in that big of a hurry As far as accuracy I didn't shoot paper. Just blasting away at rocks etc at the cliff on the back of the ranch. Actually got lucky and hit a basketball sized rock at about 125 yds twice out of 5 using the seat of the 4 wheeler for a rest. Fun gun to shoot and not hard on the hand at all. Not loaded hot though. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Greatly appreciated.
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^^^ Congratulations on gettin' 'er done!
As long as it is crimped in a final, separate step, there is nothing more difficult in loading the .44-40 (44 WCF) compared to any other cartridge. I don't understand why there is such consternation regarding loading the .44-40.
For what it is worth, case neck tension should be snug, and if it is not, the diameter of the expander should be reduced .001" at a time until sufficient tension is achieved, but again this applies to all cartridges.
For what it is worth, I crimp with the beloved Lee collet type factory crimp die, which is the best there is IMHO. I do not use a standard roll crimp die.
(Edited to add pics of my one and only gun in .44-40 caliber, as described in post #3.)
As long as it is crimped in a final, separate step, there is nothing more difficult in loading the .44-40 (44 WCF) compared to any other cartridge. I don't understand why there is such consternation regarding loading the .44-40.
For what it is worth, case neck tension should be snug, and if it is not, the diameter of the expander should be reduced .001" at a time until sufficient tension is achieved, but again this applies to all cartridges.
For what it is worth, I crimp with the beloved Lee collet type factory crimp die, which is the best there is IMHO. I do not use a standard roll crimp die.
(Edited to add pics of my one and only gun in .44-40 caliber, as described in post #3.)
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CptCurl
SWCA Member
^^^^^ That's the best advice in this thread.^^^^^
Buy the Lee Factory Crimp die and all your troubles are behind you. It's hard to overstate how good this collet crimping die is.
Curl
CptCurl
SWCA Member
Beyond the .44-40 WCF, where the Lee Factory Crimp die really shines is loading the .32-20 WCF.
If you try to load this round using a roll crimp you better make sure all your cases are trimmed to exactly the same length and that your roll crimp is adjusted precisely.
On the other hand, with the Lee die you seat the bullet with no stress on the case and then crimp with no downward force on the case. You can't buckle that thin little neck or shoulder.
Curl
If you try to load this round using a roll crimp you better make sure all your cases are trimmed to exactly the same length and that your roll crimp is adjusted precisely.
On the other hand, with the Lee die you seat the bullet with no stress on the case and then crimp with no downward force on the case. You can't buckle that thin little neck or shoulder.
Curl
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