OP
greentick
Member
good points all, will pass it on. I suspect it may become "non-firing" at this point but will pass on the above advice. Factory letter request went out in yesterdays mail.
44 Russian/44 American
- Thread starter greentick
- Start date
Masterpiece
Member
Hi Todd,
Thanks for posting more photos!! You can definitely see now that the Nickel-Plating is Original to the Revolver.
Also thanks for the info about the Cases,Bullets,Etc.,but my info was actually directed to you as far as getting the Correct Diameter Bullets if your intent is to shoot it. Although,as others have made mention,I don't think is a good idea to shoot it too much now that you know what you have!! It's too valuable of a Revolver to shoot on a regular basis!! Maybe once in a great while,but "Be Very Careful" because even one mischarge could ruin everything!!
Anyway,keep us posted with what you find concerning it's history!!
Take Care!!
Thanks for posting more photos!! You can definitely see now that the Nickel-Plating is Original to the Revolver.
Also thanks for the info about the Cases,Bullets,Etc.,but my info was actually directed to you as far as getting the Correct Diameter Bullets if your intent is to shoot it. Although,as others have made mention,I don't think is a good idea to shoot it too much now that you know what you have!! It's too valuable of a Revolver to shoot on a regular basis!! Maybe once in a great while,but "Be Very Careful" because even one mischarge could ruin everything!!
Anyway,keep us posted with what you find concerning it's history!!
Take Care!!
Welcome to the forum. What a neat piece of history to have in the family and possible connection to the family of Davey Crockett. I would definitely pursue that connection and get anything that you can in writing. As time goes by, these stories become clouded and harder to document.
A fine old early revolver with written documentation becomes priceless.
A fine old early revolver with written documentation becomes priceless.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
Congratulations on helping out with that fine piece of history.
If I may, I would like to warn you, please do not attempt to shoot it.
Your revolver is chambered for what became known as the 44 S&W American cartridge. Sometimes just called 44 American, sometimes just 44 S&W. There is more to it than just getting the correct bullet diameter. 44 American is an obsolete old cartridge that employed what is called a heeled bullet. A heeled bullet had a small diameter shank at the rear that was inserted into the cartridge case. The case was then crimped around the shank, or 'heel'. The entire cartridge was the same diameter, both the bullet and the case. That is why if you look into the chambers, you will not see a shoulder in the chamber. If you want to see a modern cartridge with a heeled bullet, pull the bullet out of any 22 rimfire ammo. 22s are the only ammo today that uses heeled bullets.
The problem with heeled bullets was the lubrication was on the outside of the bullet. It attracted a lot of dust and grit. When the Russian government contracted with S&W for a large order of revolvers, they specified they did not want a cartridge with a heeled bullet. S&W came up with a new cartridge called the 44 Russian. The two cartridges are not the same.
44 Russian was one of the first calibers developed with a modern type bullet. 44 Russian was developed with a bullet that had the same outer diameter as the inside diameter of the case. The lube was contained in grooves on the bullet, and they were contained completely inside the case when the cartridges were assembled. That is why there is no shoulder in the chambers of your revolver. The shoulder is there to make the transition between the case diameter and the bullet diameter. The case diameter and bullet diameter in your revolver are the same, so there is no shoulder in the chamber. There were other cartridges made in the 19th Century that also used heeled bullets, but they are all obsolete now. Almost all cartridges now use a bullet that is the same diameter as the inside of the case and is inside lubed.
Even if you could find some cases appropriate for 44 American, nobody makes them, and if you could find an appropriate heeled bullet, you still have to figure out how to crimp the cases around the bullet. Modern reloading dies are only designed to crimp the case with a bullet of a smaller diameter than the case. You cannot crimp a heeled case with a modern die. I have read of some shooters who developed some special dies so they could reload heeled bullets, but they made them themselves.
Lastly, that pistol should only be fired with real Black Powder. Forget cowboy ammo. Cowboy ammo is mostly loaded with Smokeless powder, and although the pressure is purposely kept low, this is only to meet the requirements of the lower velocities often desired in Cowboy shooting. Even the lightest Smokeless Cowboy loads will still develop a higher and sharper pressure spike than Black Powder. That old S&W was never designed to take such a pressure spike. The steel used at the time is not up to it.
I recommend against Hodgdon's Triple 7 too. It is what is called a Black Powder substitute in that it develops a lot of smoke when fired. But Triple 7 is roughly 15% more powerful than real Black Powder. There is no need to subject that old gun to over pressure as a full case of 777 might cause. There are other Black Powder substitutes that you might try, such as American Pioneer Powder's APP, but as I say, you will not be able to find components, or crimp the cartridges.
There is one brand of ammo that does load with Black Powder, but they do not load 44 American, only 44 Russian.
So. No commercial ammo available. Can't take Smokeless pressure. No commercial cases available. Have to find heeled bullets. Have to make your own crimping dies.
Please, enjoy that wonderful old revolver as the precious heirloom it is, don't attempt to shoot it.
By the way, I shoot a lot of Black Powder in both modern firearms and antiques. I have a New Model Number Three that was made in 1882. I do shoot it occasionally with Black Powder. But it is chambered for 44 Russian, cases are available, and I would never dream of shooting it with Smokeless powder.
Sorry for the long post, but I felt you needed to know.
Congratulations on helping out with that fine piece of history.
If I may, I would like to warn you, please do not attempt to shoot it.
Your revolver is chambered for what became known as the 44 S&W American cartridge. Sometimes just called 44 American, sometimes just 44 S&W. There is more to it than just getting the correct bullet diameter. 44 American is an obsolete old cartridge that employed what is called a heeled bullet. A heeled bullet had a small diameter shank at the rear that was inserted into the cartridge case. The case was then crimped around the shank, or 'heel'. The entire cartridge was the same diameter, both the bullet and the case. That is why if you look into the chambers, you will not see a shoulder in the chamber. If you want to see a modern cartridge with a heeled bullet, pull the bullet out of any 22 rimfire ammo. 22s are the only ammo today that uses heeled bullets.
The problem with heeled bullets was the lubrication was on the outside of the bullet. It attracted a lot of dust and grit. When the Russian government contracted with S&W for a large order of revolvers, they specified they did not want a cartridge with a heeled bullet. S&W came up with a new cartridge called the 44 Russian. The two cartridges are not the same.
44 Russian was one of the first calibers developed with a modern type bullet. 44 Russian was developed with a bullet that had the same outer diameter as the inside diameter of the case. The lube was contained in grooves on the bullet, and they were contained completely inside the case when the cartridges were assembled. That is why there is no shoulder in the chambers of your revolver. The shoulder is there to make the transition between the case diameter and the bullet diameter. The case diameter and bullet diameter in your revolver are the same, so there is no shoulder in the chamber. There were other cartridges made in the 19th Century that also used heeled bullets, but they are all obsolete now. Almost all cartridges now use a bullet that is the same diameter as the inside of the case and is inside lubed.
Even if you could find some cases appropriate for 44 American, nobody makes them, and if you could find an appropriate heeled bullet, you still have to figure out how to crimp the cases around the bullet. Modern reloading dies are only designed to crimp the case with a bullet of a smaller diameter than the case. You cannot crimp a heeled case with a modern die. I have read of some shooters who developed some special dies so they could reload heeled bullets, but they made them themselves.
Lastly, that pistol should only be fired with real Black Powder. Forget cowboy ammo. Cowboy ammo is mostly loaded with Smokeless powder, and although the pressure is purposely kept low, this is only to meet the requirements of the lower velocities often desired in Cowboy shooting. Even the lightest Smokeless Cowboy loads will still develop a higher and sharper pressure spike than Black Powder. That old S&W was never designed to take such a pressure spike. The steel used at the time is not up to it.
I recommend against Hodgdon's Triple 7 too. It is what is called a Black Powder substitute in that it develops a lot of smoke when fired. But Triple 7 is roughly 15% more powerful than real Black Powder. There is no need to subject that old gun to over pressure as a full case of 777 might cause. There are other Black Powder substitutes that you might try, such as American Pioneer Powder's APP, but as I say, you will not be able to find components, or crimp the cartridges.
There is one brand of ammo that does load with Black Powder, but they do not load 44 American, only 44 Russian.
So. No commercial ammo available. Can't take Smokeless pressure. No commercial cases available. Have to find heeled bullets. Have to make your own crimping dies.
Please, enjoy that wonderful old revolver as the precious heirloom it is, don't attempt to shoot it.
By the way, I shoot a lot of Black Powder in both modern firearms and antiques. I have a New Model Number Three that was made in 1882. I do shoot it occasionally with Black Powder. But it is chambered for 44 Russian, cases are available, and I would never dream of shooting it with Smokeless powder.
Sorry for the long post, but I felt you needed to know.
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Masterpiece
Member
I don't mean to step on Driftwood's toes,but there "Are" commercially available Case Forming & Seating/Crimping Dies to make "Authentic-Looking" Reproduction 44 S&W American Cartridges. There are also at least two companies I know of for sure that make the "Stepped' or "Heeled" Bullets to do this as well. The Bullets have to be Pre-Lubed before they're sized,but are the "Correct" Profile & Diameter for these Revolvers. I would also agree,as he stated,that these be loaded with Black Powder to very low pressures if you still feel the need to fire it. Hopefully Not!! As I mentioned in my earlier posts,I think knowing now by the information we've given you regarding it's "Historical Significance" it has curbed your desire to do any "Plinking"!! I would also like to say,in Driftwood's defense,that his explanation was "Excellent" in explaining the Design of the 44 S&W American Cartridge.
Take Care!!
Take Care!!
Jim Watson
Member
Buffalo Arms sells .44 American black powder ammunition.
They use a hollow base bullet instead of a heel bullet, sort of like the .41 Long Colt ended its days. Expensive at $114 a box but there is a lot of work reforming the brass and handloading BP ammunition.
They sell brass and a heeled bullet if you want to DIY.
Lee could make up a collet factory crimp die on special order, I know they have done .41 LC.
Don't get me wrong, I would not stress the old gun even with correct ammunition. My old S&Ws of common models with no provenance are one thing, a scarce model with traceable history is a horse of a different color, nothing to take a chance with.
They use a hollow base bullet instead of a heel bullet, sort of like the .41 Long Colt ended its days. Expensive at $114 a box but there is a lot of work reforming the brass and handloading BP ammunition.
They sell brass and a heeled bullet if you want to DIY.
Lee could make up a collet factory crimp die on special order, I know they have done .41 LC.
Don't get me wrong, I would not stress the old gun even with correct ammunition. My old S&Ws of common models with no provenance are one thing, a scarce model with traceable history is a horse of a different color, nothing to take a chance with.
Just for the record, I would not shoot the gun either, at least more than one session just to be able to experience it once. And for one session let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. Afterall, we're not talking about shooting matches, just sending a few bullets downrange.
The way the ammunition companies coped with 38 and 41 Colt heeled bullets was a simple and workable system. Use standard inside lubed bullets cast from pure lead with a hollow base.
For the 41 Colt, a .386 bullet was used. The hollow base expands in the bore to catch the rifling even with a mild load. It wasn't an issue of "IF " it worked but rather "HOW WELL" it worked!
To load for the 44 S&W American nothing could be simpler or SAFER. Use a standard hollow base 41 Mag .410 bullet cast in pure lead. Lyman hollow base bullet # 41027 is 220 grs.; within 4 grs of the original 44 American bullet weight and will seat in a cut down 41 mag case (cheaper than buying them from Buffalo Arms) and no special forming required. Seat the bullets in standard 41 dies. Turn the seating screw way down for the shorter cases and to keep from crimping the case so that pressure stays very low. You won't have to worry about bullets "pulling" from the case under recoil with this load. 25 grs of FFG black powder approximates the original cartridge. Use 20 grs to be extra, extra cautious or 15% less than 20 grs. if using non-corrosive Triple seven.
If you don't care at all about accuracy or don't cast bullets, use an 'off the shelf' standard 41 mag bullet around 200 grs. or less. It will hit the paper sideways, but it will go down range safely and it will hit the paper if the target is big enough! And your cases will be reformed) enlarged slightly to fit the chamber better. If you want to reload the cases with .41 caliber bullets again, only neck resize them in the standard 41 mag resizing die.
The way the ammunition companies coped with 38 and 41 Colt heeled bullets was a simple and workable system. Use standard inside lubed bullets cast from pure lead with a hollow base.
For the 41 Colt, a .386 bullet was used. The hollow base expands in the bore to catch the rifling even with a mild load. It wasn't an issue of "IF " it worked but rather "HOW WELL" it worked!
To load for the 44 S&W American nothing could be simpler or SAFER. Use a standard hollow base 41 Mag .410 bullet cast in pure lead. Lyman hollow base bullet # 41027 is 220 grs.; within 4 grs of the original 44 American bullet weight and will seat in a cut down 41 mag case (cheaper than buying them from Buffalo Arms) and no special forming required. Seat the bullets in standard 41 dies. Turn the seating screw way down for the shorter cases and to keep from crimping the case so that pressure stays very low. You won't have to worry about bullets "pulling" from the case under recoil with this load. 25 grs of FFG black powder approximates the original cartridge. Use 20 grs to be extra, extra cautious or 15% less than 20 grs. if using non-corrosive Triple seven.
If you don't care at all about accuracy or don't cast bullets, use an 'off the shelf' standard 41 mag bullet around 200 grs. or less. It will hit the paper sideways, but it will go down range safely and it will hit the paper if the target is big enough! And your cases will be reformed) enlarged slightly to fit the chamber better. If you want to reload the cases with .41 caliber bullets again, only neck resize them in the standard 41 mag resizing die.
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deadin
US Veteran
One last word of caution if using black powder. If you decide to use a reduced load (one that doesn't fill the case) be sure to top off the load with a filler of some sort. The base of the bullet should just lightly compress the load. (I've used oat meal, cornstarch or even a wad stack.)
What you don't want is any "air space" in the case as it can cause a pretty bad pressure spike with BP.
I don't know if this is true with the BP substitutes. (Maybe someone other can chime in.)
What you don't want is any "air space" in the case as it can cause a pretty bad pressure spike with BP.
I don't know if this is true with the BP substitutes. (Maybe someone other can chime in.)
OP
greentick
Member
I appreciate the wisdom shared by all. As I said above, I would be surprised if this now becomes a non-firing heirloom. Remember, it's not mine, we're just running down the background to surprise my father in law. If we load for it I will follow the above precautions and it would be VERY rarely shot.
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Masterpiece
Member
Hi Todd,
Don't forget to keep us posted with your research on it's background history if you would!! I've been doing some researching myself & found quite a few "Crockett's" that lived in Arkansas around that period,but sorry to say no "Justin's" or anything close. I thought I had a good hit for you the other day when I ran across a Late 1800's Centennial of Arkansas,but the Crockett that was listed wasn't from the area you had mentioned. He also turned out to be an M.D. not a J.O.P or Postmaster. Good Luck with your research!!
Take Care!!
Don't forget to keep us posted with your research on it's background history if you would!! I've been doing some researching myself & found quite a few "Crockett's" that lived in Arkansas around that period,but sorry to say no "Justin's" or anything close. I thought I had a good hit for you the other day when I ran across a Late 1800's Centennial of Arkansas,but the Crockett that was listed wasn't from the area you had mentioned. He also turned out to be an M.D. not a J.O.P or Postmaster. Good Luck with your research!!
Take Care!!
OP
greentick
Member
Justin is the family name... Real name is Jeff, brother of (Jim). (Their father was John Wilson Crockett, Son of Henry Crockett, Son of John Crockett who was Davy's older brother). They owned a hardware store together. Jeff's son was the JOP. Jeff was still the initial owner, not sure it passed from Jeff to the JOP or if it still went to Frank D. My wife spoke with her great-aunt in Arkansas yesterday and got more of the low down.
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Masterpiece
Member
Hi Todd,
I take it that was the Nickname the family gave him?? That would make a "Big" difference in researching him!! Now all I have to do is see if I can find the Centennial of Arkansas Link I found the other day & go through it again. If nothing else,now I have two first names to work with!! Another thing,do you know if Mulberry actually the name of the Town at the time or possibly was it a County name?? The reason I asked is from what I've been finding out researching alot of those Early Towns were actually named after the Counties they were originally founded in. I'll see how I make out this weekend!! If I strike gold I'll PM you if I find anything I think may help you. Wish me luck!!
Take Care!!
I take it that was the Nickname the family gave him?? That would make a "Big" difference in researching him!! Now all I have to do is see if I can find the Centennial of Arkansas Link I found the other day & go through it again. If nothing else,now I have two first names to work with!! Another thing,do you know if Mulberry actually the name of the Town at the time or possibly was it a County name?? The reason I asked is from what I've been finding out researching alot of those Early Towns were actually named after the Counties they were originally founded in. I'll see how I make out this weekend!! If I strike gold I'll PM you if I find anything I think may help you. Wish me luck!!
Take Care!!
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Ballarat
Member
Greentic, what a wonderful story of an old historical revolver. I have really enjoyed reading all posts in this thread. There must still be more of these old treasures out there waiting to be found.
Congratulations. If it were mine, I dont think I would be game enough to shoot it, its one of only a very few and could never be replaced.
Regards
Bob
Congratulations. If it were mine, I dont think I would be game enough to shoot it, its one of only a very few and could never be replaced.
Regards
Bob
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
Well, I learn something every day. Didn't know anybody was making 44 S&W American ammo today and didn't know somebody was making dies for crimping heeled bullets.
I do think that 25 grains of BP is a bit much for the cartridge though. I only get about 19.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg into the 44 Russian cartridge and the 44 S&W American case is a little bit smaller. My rule of thumb when loading Black Powder is to pour in enough so that when the bullet has been seated it will compress the powder between 1/16" and 1/8". Depending on the bullet used, the actual volume will vary a little bit.
To make up for any errors I may have made before, here is a photo of some cartridges that may be of interest. Left to right in the photo the cartridges are 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum. The 44 American cartridge has a lube groove showing and there is still a tiny amount of lube lurking there. The lube for all the other bullets is hidden inside the shells. If you look really closely you can see that the 44 American bullet is the same diameter as the case. All the other bullets are the same diameter as the inside of their cases. You can also see that the 44 American case is ever so slightly shorter than the 44 Russian case.
Well, I learn something every day. Didn't know anybody was making 44 S&W American ammo today and didn't know somebody was making dies for crimping heeled bullets.
I do think that 25 grains of BP is a bit much for the cartridge though. I only get about 19.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg into the 44 Russian cartridge and the 44 S&W American case is a little bit smaller. My rule of thumb when loading Black Powder is to pour in enough so that when the bullet has been seated it will compress the powder between 1/16" and 1/8". Depending on the bullet used, the actual volume will vary a little bit.
To make up for any errors I may have made before, here is a photo of some cartridges that may be of interest. Left to right in the photo the cartridges are 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum. The 44 American cartridge has a lube groove showing and there is still a tiny amount of lube lurking there. The lube for all the other bullets is hidden inside the shells. If you look really closely you can see that the 44 American bullet is the same diameter as the case. All the other bullets are the same diameter as the inside of their cases. You can also see that the 44 American case is ever so slightly shorter than the 44 Russian case.
Attachments
The 25 Grains came from Cartridges of the World by Barnes. It would indeed be difficult/impossible in a modern 41 Mag solid head case!
OP
greentick
Member
My learning curve has been pretty steep this last couple of weeks, I feel your pain...
Nice pic.
Coincidentally, my father in law found the ammo (he has 4 left) and brought one by last night. UMC manufactured, "UMC S&W 44 A" on the case head.
OP
greentick
Member
It was a great surprise for my father in law and his mother when the history of the Model 3 was told. They had no idea. The whole family was pretty fired up about it. I haven't received the factory letter yet but we hope it will give us some clues to who had it between the Army and Jeff Crockett. Thanks again for the help everyone. Todd
BTW, he has 4-5 of the cartridges left. IF it get fired ever again it will be with only one of those.
BTW, he has 4-5 of the cartridges left. IF it get fired ever again it will be with only one of those.
They're too valuable to fire and they might be to old to go off. Or misfire and lodge a bullet in the barrel. Glad to hear about the appreciation of your family for this treasured heirloom.
OP
greentick
Member
He's trying to track down a video clip of the last firing. Per his report, it's still quite accurate. If found, I will post pics/vids.
DWalt
Member
L<et me add my 2 cents worth regarding reloading. It's obvious that this revolver won't be fired more than a little, just enough to say it's been fired. And accuracy is not a consideration. Therefore, why go to the bother and expense of finding the proper bullets, etc? If .41 Mag cases will work, just cut them down to a length that will fit into your chamber. Then you can do a couple of things. First, just press the empty primed cases through a block of canning parrafin. This creates a "wax" bullet that can be fired indoors into a suitable backstop with very little noise, as there is no powder involved. All the family can have a little fun with it before it is retired from shooting. Second, get some .433 round lead balls (or whatever diameter will almost fit into the case mouth), and load them ahead of a light charge of black powder or Pyrodex - less than 20 grains. Depending on where you live, you might even be able to shoot these loads in your back yard. A very light load of a smokeless pistol powder, maybe 2 to 2.5 grains, would also be safe with the round balls (but watch very carefully for double charging).
This will enable everyone to put a shot or two through the old warhorse with no danger to the gun, and no need to go to a range. I used to shoot similar wax bullets and round-ball loads in my basement from a .38 S&W revolver, into a bale of newspapers. The black powder and round-ball loads do create a lot of smoke in a confined space, however, so shooting in the back yard is probably better if you can do that.
One more thing I forgot. For the wax loads, it's a good idea to drill out the primer pocket flash hole so it's about 50% larger in diameter. This prevents the primer from backing out of the case and rubbing on the recoil shield.
This will enable everyone to put a shot or two through the old warhorse with no danger to the gun, and no need to go to a range. I used to shoot similar wax bullets and round-ball loads in my basement from a .38 S&W revolver, into a bale of newspapers. The black powder and round-ball loads do create a lot of smoke in a confined space, however, so shooting in the back yard is probably better if you can do that.
One more thing I forgot. For the wax loads, it's a good idea to drill out the primer pocket flash hole so it's about 50% larger in diameter. This prevents the primer from backing out of the case and rubbing on the recoil shield.
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