.44 Russian target model?

[Exmilcop]

I have a line on a S&W 1st. mod. DA in .44 Russian. It may be a reblue and I'll post pics as soon as I hear from the seller. It has the same blade foresight as I've seen on the target models as opposed to the usual half moon foresight. My question is how much value does it add if it is indeed a target model? I'd have to scrimp and perhaps go into temporary hock to buy it, but it may be worth it. Any input would be most appreciated.

 

[opoefc]

Is the rear sight a target sight ? ( and if the front sight a target sight, it might be a factory target gun. ) Any serial numbers stamped on the sights ? If the evidence points to a target gun, the uptick in value would only occur if the gun letters as shipped as a target from S&W, and what that might be depends on negotiations between the parties, plus too many factors can influence the deal, such as condition and the economic position of either party. Ed. ( PS: See PM )

 

[Exmilcop]

I'm expecting more pics from the seller. I had hoped to capture some images off his ad, but it seems to have disappeared. Here are a few of the pics he sent me. To my admittedly novice eye, it looks like the normal fixed rear sight but you folks would know better.

 

[rct269]

Your admittedly novice eye is smack dab on the money--it is not a target model. That said, an idea just popped into my head. A PM is in the making, and will be along directly.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

The problem with top-break targets is that the parts are easily changed to look like a target revolver. If one has access to a target sighted top latch, it can be switched from one gun to another because it is only held in place with one screw. The front sight is even easier to change, just pop the pin and install any sight blade you want.

Another target option seen is to simply place a narrow slot in the top latch and insert a flat blade. Looks and functions like a target sight, but is not adjustable.

 

[Exmilcop]

Your admittedly novice eye is smack dab on the money--it is not a target model. That said, an idea just popped into my head. A PM is in the making, and will be along directly.

Ralph Tremaine

PM sent in response. Does anyone care to venture a guess as to why a target foresight is on a standard DA?

 

[Jim Watson]

Because a customer wanted something better to aim the gun with than the usual "thumbnail" blade but not the cost of a target rear sight.

I have seen "half target" Hand Ejectors with target front, fixed rear sights.

Just look at all the police trade in Model 10s getting expensive makeovers with FO, Tritium, or gold front sights but still the factory hog wallow rear.

Nothing mysterious about it. The only question is, will it letter as factory?

 

[iby]

I have a standard NM3 with a Partridge front sight
The letter does not mention the sight but I like it
Correction: Paine front sight

 

[rct269]

I have a standard NM3 with a Partridge front sight
The letter does not mention the sight but I like it

The photo does not lend itself to proper identification, but the profile of the sight suggests it's a Paine Black Bead, the standard target front from 1878 to 1905---or possibly the Thin Round Top Blade (essentially the same profile, but no bead), standard from 1905 to 1923. The Plain Patridge (named for its developer rather than the bird) was available on order from about 1900 on, and became standard on hand ejectors from 1923 to the early 1940's.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Kinman]

This is one of those not originally a target model. I had it lettered and there is no mention of the front or rear sight being target.

 

[rct269]

This is one of those not originally a target model. I had it lettered and there is no mention of the front or rear sight being target.

The front sight here is the Paine Black Bead--------one of about a half dozen sight blades attributed to Ira Paine-----he who developed the 38-44 S&W cartridge------the zero throat wonder round that won just about every match of his time----put the New Model #3 Target revolver on the map, and sent everybody home wondering "Who was that masked man----and how'd he learn to shoot like that?!!"

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Exmilcop]

WELL! I bought the pistol and it arrived today. I couldn't be happier. I'd rate the bore a conservative 8/10 and the chambers are the same or better. Mechanically, it's perfect and the serial numbers on the cylinder, grip, and latch are all matching. Timing, lock-up, half cock, and indexing are excellent with no cylinder slop. For sure it doesn't have the proper target rear sight and I don't know if the foresight was a factory order or a later add-on. Given it's such an early serial number (#7661), the condition is superb. The barrel could use a re-blue but the case hardening on the trigger and hammer is still very very good. I may wait for warmer weather before I touch up the barrel finish. Now it's a matter of getting it to the range to see how it shoots. A kind gentleman from this site has offered me the adjustable rear sight assembly should I wish to purchase it. Overall, this is an excellent pistol.

 

[opoefc]

.44DA, ser. # 7661, was manufactured Dec 20, 1882, if it's a .44 Russian. If it's a 44-40, make date is Aug. 24, 1889. Blue revolver . Ed

 

[rct269]

The front sight is the Paine Black Bead----standard target fare on break-opens from 1878 to 1905-----and available on order all the way to 1942.

Maybe your new gun was born a full target, and became a so-called "half target" along the way for some reason; or maybe it's always been that way. If the latch is numbered to the gun, odds are it's always been that way. Similarly, if the front sight is numbered to the gun, it's likely been there right along too. A letter will likely tell the tale.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Exmilcop]

.44DA, ser. # 7661, was manufactured Dec 20, 1882. Blue revolver . Ed

Thank you. As ever, I thought that posting the serial number would garner a response from you and your wealth of knowledge. This is the fourth and (hopefully) the last 1st.Mod.DA that I'll be purchasing. It's everything I wanted; the long barrel, the better foresight, and excellent condition, in this model of pistol. Fingers crossed for accuracy. I took the liberty of posting a pic of the bore and chambers. You gentlemen will note the condition. Of interest, there seems to be a shadow ring just shy of the point where the chambers narrow. Any thoughts? To forestall the obvious question, the cylinder measures 1.566. Could this be in .44-40 and not .44 Russian? Is there any problem in firing .44 Russian out of a .44-40?

 

[rct269]

.44 Russian bullet diameter is .429"---.44-40's is .427". If .002" larger is a problem, then it's a problem. That said, seems like removing .002" with the sizing die would be a piece of cake. (This from one who hasn't run a bullet through a sizing die in the better part of 50+ years).

Case problems, on the other hand-------------------------?????????????????

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

44 Russian?

Looks like a 44 Winchester caliber Frontier model Double Action to me.
The difference between a 44 Russian and a 44 WCF is HUGE.
The case width alone at the head is comparing a 45 cal to a 44 cal. See photos of case specs.
It's not safe to attempt to discharge a 44 Russian cartridge in the chamber of a 44 WCF. Grossly undersized case with oversized bullet up to .432 depending. That's as mush as 5 thousandth's over sized!!

Plus, Target sights on a 44 Frontier does in no way compliment the caliber. The 44 WCF is "not a target caliber"on a pistol platform. I wouldn't even call it target worthy on a rifle platform.

It's a general purpose caliber at best. In fact I am not aware of any target pistols in that caliber during the " Antique" black powder ERA. The reason is obvious.

If you're in Canada with a 44/40? Opps!!!

Murph

 

[Exmilcop]

The seller sold it to me in good faith believing it to be a .44 Russian. I even have the RCMP letter verifying that it's antique status. From what I've read, the .44-40 pistols like mine are scarcer. Any idea of current market value in the US?

 

[BMur]

Market value

Photos honestly have to be very high quality like those you find at auction house auctions in order to give a decent appraisal.

The Frontiers in nice condition with original finish and a long barrel should bring over $1800.

However, the market is very rocky right now so tomorrow? Who knows?

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Thank you. As ever, I thought that posting the serial number would garner a response from you and your wealth of knowledge. This is the fourth and (hopefully) the last 1st.Mod.DA that I'll be purchasing. It's everything I wanted; the long barrel, the better foresight, and excellent condition, in this model of pistol. Fingers crossed for accuracy. I took the liberty of posting a pic of the bore and chambers. You gentlemen will note the condition. Of interest, there seems to be a shadow ring just shy of the point where the chambers narrow. Any thoughts? To forestall the obvious question, the cylinder measures 1.566. Could this be in .44-40 and not .44 Russian? Is there any problem in firing .44 Russian out of a .44-40?

Post us a well lit image looking down in the Cylinder Chambers.

We'll be able to tell instantly if this is .44 Russian or .44-40.