.44mag velocity question

[big bullets]

i posted this on another site. not getting the attention i was hoping for. should have just came here to the S&W forum to start with...... what was i thinking?

i just returned from the range and testing my loadings for my S&W 29-2 for deer hunting. not really seeing what i should have for velocity. my chorongtaph is a new ced m2 and seems to be pretty accurate as tested against a few known loads. i have only used it 5 times so far and haven't blown the screens off yet! i didn't store the first string. chalk it up to newbieness.

String 2, 1160.0 1187.0 1188.0 1152.0 1187.0 High: Low: E.S.: Ave.: S.D.: 95%:
-14.8 12.2 13.2 -22.8 12.2 1188.0 1152.0 36.0 1174.8 15.6 ±24.2

i used the hodgden powder recipe starting load for h-110. each load was scaled (i have good quality check weights). using a lee die and a heavy crimp.
240 GR. NOS JHP Hodgdon H110 .429" 1.600" 23.0 1413 25,200 CUP 24.0 1522 36,200 CUP
my load:

powder= 23.0 of h-110

240g xtp

cci 350mag primer

crimped in the cantilever grove to 1.610 col

win. cases

the pistol is a S&W 29-2 with a 6 1/2in barrel 2x scope.

i only loaded 10 rounds with 23.0 to start out and see how they worked. i expected them to be a bit faster than i found. i also loaded another 5 with 23.5, but didn't fired them as the first loads had primers that looked a bit flattened. i later popped them out to find that they did in fact have a bit of a top hatting going on. no splits or buldges, no tightness removing them from the cylinder, no createring or blowby.

hodgdon list a starting powder loading of 23.0 for a 240 nosler jhp with a velocity of 1413fps. a max load of 24.0 for 1522. they do not list a test barrel that i seen on line.

i just picked up a "one book" that has xtp's in the hornady section. they list a starting load of 20.7 at 1100fps up to 24.8g for 1400. using a 240xtp in a 7 1/2 blackhawk.

i've only been reloading for a short time, and i do know not to expect printed data figures. but i should be somewhere close right? i have also read that this h110 powder is a hot burner and pressures spike quit quickly. a few of the recipies i concedered have a range of around 1 grain between min and max loads. the hornady loading for 240 xtp's go nearly 4 grains. my 23.0 grain load has me worried looking at the primers top hatting, but low in velocity also has me wondering what to expect. this powder has good reviews for velocity and accuracy. it did print a 3in. group at 50yds. which i'm very happy with. maybe my gun just doesn't like this powder for velocity?

a question was asked and pictures were added as follows:

not the best pics but all i can get from this camera. the brass primer is a factory load for comparision. wwb 240g jsp avg. fps. through my chorony 1262. the cci primer in my load is a bit flat and there is a pronounced hatting. the pockets were cleaned and primier was seated properly below flush. with no visual distoration. they also fit snug in the pockets.
i don't see any sign of createring or blowby. there is not ring around the pin dent either.
they do extract from the chamber as smooth and easy as the factory loadings also.

i don't have alot of experience to draw from in pressure reading, so safe is the best way for me at this point. the hatting maybe a normal characteristic for these primers and loading. or it could be a danger sign as such i don't know yet. they did feel snug seating with my hand primming tool. my velocity readings tell me i'm safe, the primers tell me i'm not. what say you?

i have only loaded one round at a time in the same wheel chamber to control the variables while testing. i haven't progressed far enough to load all the chambers to see how much they differ yet.

yes i do like the xtp's. they fly straight and hit hard. i've used them in my frontstuffer for many seasons, they do a very good job of loading the freezer with tasty critter parts..

 

[john traveler]

While your loads do sound safe and by the book, your primer signs may or may not indicate overpressure.

It's difficult to accurately "read" primer signs even when all variables are controlled and accounted for. When you throw in different primers of different makes and lot numbers, it can get downright confusing!

The only sure way to compare cartridge load pressures is to pull the bullet on a factory round, dump the powder, and reload using your powder and bullet combination. With THAT as a starting point, you can compare your load with the factory load, and be reasonably sure that primer indications show what YOUR load does compared with the factory load.

What this method does is remove all the other variables and allow you to compare a factory round and your handload's indicated pressure. If your handload is significantly higher pressure than the factory load, you will see the indications of overpressure: primer flattening, cratering, and that "top hat" effect in your picture.

This method is recommended by the NRA Technical Advisor as giving the most accurate results without laboratory pressure measuring equipment.

 

[dla]

Given the velocities you are getting and that you didn't report sticky case extraction, I would say that you are well within safe pressure limits. Were the cases sooty on the exterior after firing? You may actually have a low pressure condition.

The following will give you some 4" load data to compare using the same components (h110 is equiv to W296):
S&W329pd information

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

It sounds like your loads are right for velocity to me.

I have been loading for 30 years, so I'm not new to it. I have owned an Oehler 35P since they first came out in the late '80's, have used it for hundreds of thousands of loads, and it is an extremely reliable chrono.

All that said, I recently chronoe'd some 240 XTP's out of three of my .44 mag's to cross reference them. I used a 29-2 w-8 3/8" tube, a 4 screw 29 w-6 1/2" tube and a 629 w-6" tube. These are all pinned and recessed guns like yours.

I received the following from them-

8 3/8" bbl.-
24 gr of H-110/ 240 XTP/ CCI 350/ W-W case =1310 fps @15'

6 1/2" bbl.-
24 gr H-110/ 240 XTP/ CCI 350/ W-W case =1225 fps @15'

20.5 gr 2400/ 240 XTP/ CCI 300/ W-W case = 1263 fps @ 15'

10 gr Unique/ 300 gr cast RNFP/ CCI 300/ W-W case=1076 fps @ 15'

6" bbl.-
20.5 gr 2400/ 240 XTP/ CCI 300/ W-W case =1286 fps @ 15'

10 gr/ Unique/ 300 gr cast RNFP/ CCI 300/ W-W case =1092 fps @ 15'

Note that the first load was used in both the 8 3/8" gun and the 6 1/2" gun, and the second and third loads for the 6.5" gun were used in both it and the 629 witha 1/2" shorter tube, and the 6" gun gave higher velocity, though not by much.

It just goes to show that reloading manuals are a reference for pressure tested data, not an absolute regarding velocity vs. barrel length vs. bullet used, etc.

Guns are all different with slight variations in internal dimensions, so no two will turn in the exact same results, even if they are otherwise identical.

Here is one other example of what I am talking about.
I used the first load above in a 7 1/2" Redhawk and received the following-

24 gr H -110/ 240 XTP/ CCI 350/ W-W case = 1364 fps @ 15'.

A shorter barrel gave higher velocity again.

Once you use your new chrono a while you'll start to see regular discrepencies between your results and what is published in the manuals. That's normal. They use closed breech pressure guns most of the time, and even when they use a vented barrel the results will still vary from yours most of the time. Their pressure guns are normally cut to minimum SAAMI specs, while the average gun isn't, and will generally be in the middle of allowable SAAMI specs.

As for the primers-

What brand were you using? They vary in hardness quite a bit from brand to brand. Also, the "top hat" affect could be due to your gun having a little bit of excess headspace which allows the cartridge to be shoved forward by the firing pin, then the round is set off, the brass is expanded against the chamber wall hlding it there momentarily, while the primer backs out slightly until it contacts the recoil sheild which will leave the look you are getting with your primers.

 

[buck460XVR]

big bullets.......you did not say how your accuracy was. Too many folks focus on velocity when loading for .44 mag. For hunting, range use and SD/HD my primary focus is always accuracy. Hit a deer in the boiler room with a .44 mag and it won't care one iota if the bullet is going 100 fps slower than the book says. Hit it bad and it don't matter how fast your bullet is going. When using H110/W296 properly in .44 mag loads, velocity is moot, as even starting loads have more than enough oompht to put down a deer......when hit properly.

Most books show a range of 23-24 gr of H110/W296 under a 240 gr bullet in .44 mag. My experience has been, any more or any less is detrimental to accuracy. My PC629 likes 23.5 gr while my 77/44 prefers 23 gr. That is what I use. I know the velocity they produce, but to me, it really doesn't matter.

 

[Littledragon777]

I shoot 23 grains of W296 under the 240 XTPs out of my Super Redhawk with a 9 1/2 inch barrel. While I don't have a chrono of these they show no signs of pressure problems using WLP primers. I know one thing they are really accurate and the big Missouri whitetails I shoot with them give up the ghost rather quickly.

 

[Snapping Twig]

I get best accuracy with two loads for any of my 29's.

22g W296/H110 under a cast 265g GCSWC Lyman 429244 and a WLP. No chrono, but I've always believed it to be @ 1200fps.

My other load in a magnum case is 7g W231/HP38 under a cast 250g SWC Lyman 429421 and a WLP. I estimate this load to produce @ 900fps.

 

[big bullets]

lots of good info offered guys thanks.

i think i will pull a few factory rounds and put my powder and bullet in to see what they look like.

what is your feeling that the fine h110 powder is working its way into the flash hole an creating the problem?

it was mentioned to me that i may have a head space problem. but wouldn't just about all the loads/primers i've used have these primer issues?
also my low velocities could be from a worn forcing cone. i have to put my feeler gauges to the f/c, head space and endplay clearances to see what i have for shure, but just eyeballing it they look close to spec.

after reading up abit on the forcing cone. i took a look and found that the upper edge does in fact have just a small bit of chamfering. no where near what i've seen in the few pictures i found. the other 70% of the bore doesn't look mechine sharp but also doesn't look erroded but is squared off nicely. the upper strap shows a stain, but has no flame cutting i can feel with my nail. which suprises me as i have run probably 600-700rounds through it over the years. with 70-80% of them being .44 special.

to answer some of the questions asked:

the primers used are fresh cci 350mags and seated tight in a clean bore on once fired win. cases.

the factory 240g jsp winchester round's primers fired had no serious flatting. speed is with in 1240-1260 fps. at the same shooting session.

the xtps fired printed in a 3in group at 50 yrds. which is better than the best factory rounds i have found. i could probably do much better as i was concentrating on trying to keep the shoots at the same level through the beams.

i do know that printed load data is just a suggestion. i chose the hodgdon 23.0 starting load over the hornady xtp data, because it was a start load used in several other recipes i looked at and middle of the road for hornadys data. my readings of h 110's pressure problems using lesser charges than recommened starting loads had me nervous.
in several other calibers i have loaded. i found that hornadys data for the xtp's will in general be several grains of powder higher than many other powder/bullet manufactures data for like loads. for me at this point in my reloading hobby. SAFE is better then deciding what data to trust. is it that these bullets are that soft verses others?

at 200-300 fps less than most of the data i've looked at. which is quite abit at pistol speeds, i'm just looking for the magnum loads that i know this gun capable of. hell, at 1150 for a .44 mag 240g bullet is sad. the load for my 4 1/2 in .45acp which is hot but safe, is throwing a 230g xtp at 1060. not much better. although it starts to flutter off center target past 30 yrds.

i guess at this point i'll measure the clearances and see what i have. if it's ok, i'll try a couple factory primed cases with my goodies and see what they do.

 

[Dale53]

big bullets;
I have three S&W .44 Magnums. My deer hunter is a 8 3/8" and I also have a Ruger Red Hawk 7½". Both are scoped. Hodgdon's data is gathered with a closed breech pressure gun and the velocities, while correct for Hodgdon, do NOT reflect real world velocities.

I shoot all my own cast bullets. Your velocities are in line with mine in both the S&W and the Ruger.

I shoot a cast 250 gr Keith bullet. 23.0 grs of H110 give me 1200 fps and 24.0 grs give me 1300 fps. Both are about 100 fps less than I would have thought. However, the 1200 fps shot lenghtwise through a 200-250 lb buck hit at 75 yards. It was an instant kill (he was facing me and I broke his neck). The bullet was not recovered. Elmer Keith reported that 1200 fps was enough. I fully believe him.

I would not be afraid of going to 24.0 grs with your chosen bullet and you will probably get about 100 fps more. Whether that is important to you or not, it is there if you need/want it.

Good hunting!
Dale53

 

[specops65]

Big bullets, I think you will find that most factory .44 mag ammo will chronograph about 1100 to 1200 fps these days. I had 4-5 boxes of Remington that were from 1956, 250 gr. 3/4 jacket LSWC that I got with a Ruger 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk. Those would chronograph an honest 1450 fps but most commercial companies have toned down their ammo in the intervening years. After having to have 4 different 29s rebuilt (2 more than once) I stopped shooting heavy loads in them. My Mountain Gun gets a diet of 7.5 grs of Unique or 17 grs of 2400 with 250 LSWCs. Haven't found anything that has survived a hit from either one. The only slug I've recovered was a Texas heart shot with the Unique load at about 35 yards. More dumb luck that marksmanship on my part. H110 is a very good powder and meters very uniformly but I've had better luck with it in .22 Hornet and .357 Mag than in .44 Mag.

 

[Snapping Twig]

Large bullets moving at moderate speed appear to penetrate best.

FWIW, if you shoot mostly lead, consider having the forcing cone beveled to 11 degrees instead of the 18 degrees the factory provides. I only shoot lead, so all mine are modified this way.

Accuracy is increased, or so "they" say.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

One other thing that can, and often does affect velocity is the fact that you are using a 29-2. They have throats that will measure .432" on the small side, and .433" on average. That allows a bit of the gasses to escape out and around the side of the bullet and then out the BC gap instead of pushing against the bullet's base like we would want.

I own several 29-2's and 29's pre 29's etc. They all measure in at the specs I just listed, and were what S&W used for throat diameter in the 29 series up until late in production of the 29-4, and starting with the 29-5's they went to .430" which is correct. They even used .428" for a brief period in the 29/629 classics when they first came out.

I know that while we are telling you that your speed is enough, it does suck when you buy a magnum and expect full magnum performance, but don't quite get it. I like having the ability to load full bore or back off to what ever level I choose at my leisure.

 

[big bullets]

you guys are great. learning much from all this info.

i'm also a fan of big slow moving projectials. be it bullets or arrows, heavy gets the job done no question.
this pistol is no queen. it's taken 5 deer using winchester ammo. they have all been one shot harvests, i do pick my shots.

my choice of this powder came from the reviews of good velocity and accuracy. the xtps have preformed very well in my muzzleloader and seemed to print very well from my pistol.
according to my ballistic calculater. my choro reading of 1175 gives me a 6in swing to 60yrds. add 2in for fudgy factor, i have an 8in kill zone. after 60 yrds this combo drops like a stone and sheads alot of energy. most of my hunting takes place in very thick tangles and fir/cedar swamps. shots are normaly 50yrds and under. if i can get another 100-150fps out of it. it'll shave a couple more inches, hold abit more energy and allow me to "thread the needle" better.

but first i have to solve this primer issue. all your help guys is well received.

 

[bagolden]

Using a Redhawk with a 7 1/2 in. tube my 240 gr XTP's over 24 gr H110 and Win std/mag primers ran right about 1400 fps. I didn't keep all the data, fired 18 rounds over a Beta Master, which I haven't used all that much. Seems like 1385 was my lowest and around 1430 on the high side.
I realize that most loads generally run slower than advertised so I was quite pleased to be getting that much velocity.

 

[big bullets]

Big bullets, I think you will find that most factory .44 mag ammo will chronograph about 1100 to 1200 fps these days. I had 4-5 boxes of Remington that were from 1956, 250 gr. 3/4 jacket LSWC that I got with a Ruger 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk. Those would chronograph an honest 1450 fps but most commercial companies have toned down their ammo in the intervening years. After having to have 4 different 29s rebuilt (2 more than once) I stopped shooting heavy loads in them. My Mountain Gun gets a diet of 7.5 grs of Unique or 17 grs of 2400 with 250 LSWCs. Haven't found anything that has survived a hit from either one. The only slug I've recovered was a Texas heart shot with the Unique load at about 35 yards. More dumb luck that marksmanship on my part. H110 is a very good powder and meters very uniformly but I've had better luck with it in .22 Hornet and .357 Mag than in .44 Mag.

(bold) thats what concerns me about hornady's xtp data. they tend to use quite a few more grains than most other data i find published. all while using the same col's and such. not for just this caliber several others.

Large bullets moving at moderate speed appear to penetrate best.

FWIW, if you shoot mostly lead, consider having the forcing cone beveled to 11 degrees instead of the 18 degrees the factory provides. I only shoot lead, so all mine are modified this way.

Accuracy is increased, or so "they" say.

interesting, i'll have to look into this somemore.

One other thing that can, and often does affect velocity is the fact that you are using a 29-2. They have throats that will measure .432" on the small side, and .433" on average. That allows a bit of the gasses to escape out and around the side of the bullet and then out the BC gap instead of pushing against the bullet's base like we would want.

I own several 29-2's and 29's pre 29's etc. They all measure in at the specs I just listed, and were what S&W used for throat diameter in the 29 series up until late in production of the 29-4, and starting with the 29-5's they went to .430" which is correct. They even used .428" for a brief period in the 29/629 classics when they first came out.

I know that while we are telling you that your speed is enough, it does suck when you buy a magnum and expect full magnum performance, but don't quite get it. I like having the ability to load full bore or back off to what ever level I choose at my leisure.

i was playing around with my caliper and your right. i see that they are between .432 and .434. when i get over to where my tools are. i'll grab my feeler gauges, mics and ball gauges. i surmise i want the smallest chamber throat on the wheel for my primary shot correct? what effect does the variance from one chamber to the next have on accuracy?
any heads up on reading material for this?

let me also ask what the repair is for an excessive gap at the forcing cone or head space? my wallet probably doesn't want to know.

 

[big bullets]

Using a Redhawk with a 7 1/2 in. tube my 240 gr XTP's over 24 gr H110 and Win std/mag primers ran right about 1400 fps. I didn't keep all the data, fired 18 rounds over a Beta Master, which I haven't used all that much. Seems like 1385 was my lowest and around 1430 on the high side.
I realize that most loads generally run slower than advertised so I was quite pleased to be getting that much velocity.

wanta trade?.................

















never happen.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Big Bullets-

Fixing endshake is as easy as dropping in an endshake washer/shim ( or two depending on your needs) you buy from Brownells. You can also buy a tool for truing up the back of the yoke recess inside the cylinder, but unless it's really messed up, I have had great success just installing the shims and checking the BC gap and endshake when the gun is back together. You are ideally looking for around .001" endshake, no less and not much more.

As far as which chamber to use-
the one that is closest to spec should give better accuracy, but that isn't set in stone. Too many other factors can come into play. I would shoot a couple of 5 shot groups with each chamber, one chamber at a time, to determine which one gives the best accuracy the most consistantly. I doubt that there will be that much difference though.

The best thing to do if you do find a large variance from chamber to chamber is to have them all opened to the exact same dimension, which will also true up each throat for roundness, because believe it or not (and you really need plug gauges to check this) many throats are not perfectly round as they come from the factory on any revo regardless of brand. You can't see it with the naked eye usually, but it's true.

If you aren't too concerned with having a recessed cylinder for the sake of period correctness, then you can have the factory fit a new style cylinder from one of the new classic 29's for between $150 and $200. It will have correct throats in it, and they will fit both it and the new style ratchet at the same time since the new cylinders require the new ratchet.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Using a Redhawk with a 7 1/2 in. tube my 240 gr XTP's over 24 gr H110 and Win std/mag primers ran right about 1400 fps. I didn't keep all the data, fired 18 rounds over a Beta Master, which I haven't used all that much. Seems like 1385 was my lowest and around 1430 on the high side.
I realize that most loads generally run slower than advertised so I was quite pleased to be getting that much velocity.

That same load in my 7.5" Redahwk gives 1364 fps av @ 15' across the Oehler.

 

[Skip Sackett]

It will be doubtful that you can get the same velocity with your firearms that Hodgdon got with their loads. The barrel that they used was an 8 3/8" one!

H110/W295 is THE velocity powder for handgun ammo fired from handguns, in my opinion. Lil' Gun will give better velocity but may cause other problems I'm not willing to deal with in my 6 shooters.

I don't have my notes right with me but I do use 24gr with the XTP bullet for my Marlin 1894 loads. It gives me about another 400fps from the 20" tube as I remember. I am right at 1800fps from it. My M629 Classic is a 5" model.

These loads were devastating on the hogs and rams I shot with them.

FWIW

 

[big bullets]

i managed to get a shot of the forcing cone that is clear enough to see.

i also measured some of the clearances with feeler gauges.

b/c .007
endshake .0035
head space .016
firing pin .029
cylinder stop has some slop. i cannot see any peening in the cylinder recesses.
i did not have a chance to get my ball gauges from the other shop yet. fooling around with a caliper. one chamber is .434 the others are .433, not real accurate i know, just "eyeballing" it till i can get the proper tools.

i have to give the endshake and cylinder stop some attention.
how does the forcing cone look? worn out or usable?

the head space measurment has me worried. according to the spec's i was given .006-.012, i'm out by .004. is this enough to give me the primer problems i'm seeing?