I am thinking of trying some 300 cast bullets in my 1917. Anyone have any experience with such? Just wanting some nice sedate slow moving heavy bullet loads as they usually are accurate and penetrate like all get -out. Any hint or starting points would be a great help. Thanks.
.45 acp 300 gr. loads
- Thread starter Taos
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Steve C
Member
The problem you have with really heavy bullet in the ACP case is the bullets are really long and the case is relatively small capacity when such a big bullet is seated. You also run out of room to the cylinder throats. If you can find relaoding data it may be worth a go but I've never seen any data for a bullet more heavy than 250gr in the ACP.
john traveler
Member
A bigger problem with trying those heavy bullet .45 ACP loads in your M1917 is that the pre-1928s S&W cylinders were not heat treated. You are likely to bulge a chamber or locking bolt cut if you push the velocity to anything much more than 500 fps.
The sights and rifling in a Model 1917 are set up for a jacketed 230-grain bullet. I'd be concerned about a cast 300-grainer not shooting to the sights and not stabilizing.
There's an interesting piece on sixguns for daily use at http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12 The article is written by John Linebaugh, the inventor of the 475 and 500 Linebaugh cartridges. His daily carry gun is a Smith in 45 Colt, and his load is a 250-grain bullet at 925 fps. He says it "will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards." He also says "practical game and field experience proves to me that it will shoot a big enough slug, fast enough to go through anything I'm gonna tackle on an average day."
It's not hard to get those ballistics from a 1917, and most loads should shoot pretty close to the sights.
Food for thought.
Okie John
There's an interesting piece on sixguns for daily use at http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12 The article is written by John Linebaugh, the inventor of the 475 and 500 Linebaugh cartridges. His daily carry gun is a Smith in 45 Colt, and his load is a 250-grain bullet at 925 fps. He says it "will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards." He also says "practical game and field experience proves to me that it will shoot a big enough slug, fast enough to go through anything I'm gonna tackle on an average day."
It's not hard to get those ballistics from a 1917, and most loads should shoot pretty close to the sights.
Food for thought.
Okie John
VAdoublegunner
Member
There was an article in Handloader a year or two ago about superheavies in the 45ACP. One of the problems as I recall was the interior taper of the case, which resulted in too much of a bulge when the bullet was seated to a standard OAL. This may be less of a problem in a revolver. The special bullets had a tapered base. I'll see if I can find the issue.
Dale53
Member
<span class="ev_code_RED">It's not hard to get those ballistics from a 1917, and most loads should shoot pretty close to the sights.</span>
I would not put ANYTHING through an original 1917 that is over SAAMI standards for a .45 ACP. These revolvers do NOT have heat treated cylinders and there have been authenticated reports of them with split cylinders. In fact, Skeeter Skelton reported his favorite 1917 suffered from a split cylinder (admittedly because of rather heavy loads he habitually used in it - not BRUTAL, but heavier than normal).
The modern 25's and 625's are much stronger (Linebaugh uses the time frame as "pinned barrels" old models and "non-pinned barrels" as modern and that is good enough for me.
I would have no problem driving .45 Auto Rims with a 250 gr bullet (Lyman 452424) to 925 with a modern 625 and in fact, will do so with my 5" 625-6. However, if I had an original Model 1917, I would keep those loads at a most reasonable level in respect to it's age and metallurgy.
FWIW
Dale53
I would not put ANYTHING through an original 1917 that is over SAAMI standards for a .45 ACP. These revolvers do NOT have heat treated cylinders and there have been authenticated reports of them with split cylinders. In fact, Skeeter Skelton reported his favorite 1917 suffered from a split cylinder (admittedly because of rather heavy loads he habitually used in it - not BRUTAL, but heavier than normal).
The modern 25's and 625's are much stronger (Linebaugh uses the time frame as "pinned barrels" old models and "non-pinned barrels" as modern and that is good enough for me.
I would have no problem driving .45 Auto Rims with a 250 gr bullet (Lyman 452424) to 925 with a modern 625 and in fact, will do so with my 5" 625-6. However, if I had an original Model 1917, I would keep those loads at a most reasonable level in respect to it's age and metallurgy.
FWIW
Dale53
Vanilla Gorilla
Member
Dale, any ideas about the 22-4 and if it will take the same loads as the 625?
john traveler
Member
We all ASSUME that modern N frame .45 ACP revolvers and cylinders are stronger than WWI era M1917 .45 ACP revolvers. The metallurgy is definitely stronger, and the fabrication methods are improved, but look at it this way:
The cylinders are still dimensionally IDENTICAL to those WWI designs. The cylinder stop cuts are still in the same locations, making the chamber wall thinnest at that point.
Keep in mind that the Triple Lock, and Sceond Models were chambered in .455 British as well as the Webley MkVI, a contemporary design. The Webley MkVI converted to .45 ACP half moon clips has been known to rupture when firing standard military ball .45 ACP. The .455 ball round used a 265 grain bullet at about 600 fps. I still maintain that pushing a 300 grain bullet out of the .45 ACP at much more than 500 fps is not a good idea. Such a load is likely to exceed SAAMI pressure specifications and is decidedly risky in the M1917.
The cylinders are still dimensionally IDENTICAL to those WWI designs. The cylinder stop cuts are still in the same locations, making the chamber wall thinnest at that point.
Keep in mind that the Triple Lock, and Sceond Models were chambered in .455 British as well as the Webley MkVI, a contemporary design. The Webley MkVI converted to .45 ACP half moon clips has been known to rupture when firing standard military ball .45 ACP. The .455 ball round used a 265 grain bullet at about 600 fps. I still maintain that pushing a 300 grain bullet out of the .45 ACP at much more than 500 fps is not a good idea. Such a load is likely to exceed SAAMI pressure specifications and is decidedly risky in the M1917.
Dale53
Member
Vanilla Gorilla;
john traveler's comments are "on point".
If I had a "modern" S&W Model 22 I would ASSUME that the cylinder is heat treated and has the same strength as the newer model 25's and 625's.
I am not one to push the envelope, however (I have .44 magnums if I want that level of power and .454 Casulls if I need more) and while I would not be afraid of 255 bullets at 925 fps with appropriate powders and charges I am NOT interested in 300 gr bullets in this platform.
FWIW
Dale53
john traveler's comments are "on point".
If I had a "modern" S&W Model 22 I would ASSUME that the cylinder is heat treated and has the same strength as the newer model 25's and 625's.
I am not one to push the envelope, however (I have .44 magnums if I want that level of power and .454 Casulls if I need more) and while I would not be afraid of 255 bullets at 925 fps with appropriate powders and charges I am NOT interested in 300 gr bullets in this platform.
FWIW
Dale53
G
Guest
Taos;
All I can say is "Don't" because you won't be happy with the results or at least I can't imagine any configuration using a 300 grain bullet in a .45ACP case that would be anything short of dangerous for a number of reasons.
Penetration isn't just a matter of 'bullet weight' but one of 'velocity' as well. Accuracy requires a couple of different things as well and one of those is also 'velocity' which is what achieves the stability required for maximum accuracy. To try driving a 300 grain bullet from a .45ACP case is simply just a wrong idea. And using the Model 1917 as a platform for such a project is also all wrong.
All I can say is "Don't" because you won't be happy with the results or at least I can't imagine any configuration using a 300 grain bullet in a .45ACP case that would be anything short of dangerous for a number of reasons.
Penetration isn't just a matter of 'bullet weight' but one of 'velocity' as well. Accuracy requires a couple of different things as well and one of those is also 'velocity' which is what achieves the stability required for maximum accuracy. To try driving a 300 grain bullet from a .45ACP case is simply just a wrong idea. And using the Model 1917 as a platform for such a project is also all wrong.
VAdoublegunner
Member
OK, found the Handloader article, "Super Heavy Bullets in the .45 Auto", April 2006, by Bob Campbell. He used a tapered JSP made by Northwest Custom Projectiles. Standard beveled or flat based bullets would not work in his application using a 1911 platform.
The gun was a customized 1911, heavy springs, shok buff, etc. He got up to 770fps with one load, but saner loads appeared to give in the 700-740fps range. Penetation *was* impressive...26" @770fps in his test medium compared to 18" with a 230 Hornady FMJ @ 860fps.
Handloader should have back issues available. It looks like something you would want to be a *very* advanced handloader to attempt. I'm fairly advanced at it ... enough to know I'd rather use a 45 Colt.
The gun was a customized 1911, heavy springs, shok buff, etc. He got up to 770fps with one load, but saner loads appeared to give in the 700-740fps range. Penetation *was* impressive...26" @770fps in his test medium compared to 18" with a 230 Hornady FMJ @ 860fps.
Handloader should have back issues available. It looks like something you would want to be a *very* advanced handloader to attempt. I'm fairly advanced at it ... enough to know I'd rather use a 45 Colt.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I agree with what has been said in regards to the use of over SAAMI pressure loads for a M1917, although Elmer had a 240gr 2400 load that is most assuredly over those specifications that he ran in his.
I would not hesitate one bit to run them in my M625JM though. The newer M625's have been rechambered for the 45 WinMag and the 460 Rowland and the design pressure for those cartridges is 40,000cup. The only way you are going to get a new M25/625 over that with a 45ACP case is to use an exorbitant amount of a fast burning powder. Which is an ignorant move when trying to get higher velocity in any cartridge.
I have some 240gr loads that approach 1100fps from my M625JM's 4" tube. I am not worried one bit about shooting them in it. Would I borrow my dad's M1917 that he bought in the 1950's from the NRA for $50 (with some change)and shoot those loads from it? Not on your life.
Some 250gr jacketed loads I fooled around with:
From left to right:
200gr LSWC, 200gr LSWC(Original H&G #68), 240gr LSWC (H&G #502), 250gr LSWC (Lyman), 270gr LSWC(Ohaus).
Hope this helps.
I would not hesitate one bit to run them in my M625JM though. The newer M625's have been rechambered for the 45 WinMag and the 460 Rowland and the design pressure for those cartridges is 40,000cup. The only way you are going to get a new M25/625 over that with a 45ACP case is to use an exorbitant amount of a fast burning powder. Which is an ignorant move when trying to get higher velocity in any cartridge.
I have some 240gr loads that approach 1100fps from my M625JM's 4" tube. I am not worried one bit about shooting them in it. Would I borrow my dad's M1917 that he bought in the 1950's from the NRA for $50 (with some change)and shoot those loads from it? Not on your life.
Some 250gr jacketed loads I fooled around with:
From left to right:
200gr LSWC, 200gr LSWC(Original H&G #68), 240gr LSWC (H&G #502), 250gr LSWC (Lyman), 270gr LSWC(Ohaus).
Hope this helps.
harry carey
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does the guy asking the question know how to WORK UP A LOAD ??? years ago we loaded the Keith long Colt bullet 270 grain, as ours was, with 6.5 of unique and shot it in autos , but not everyday ! finding the brass was the big problem and should tell how hot this was in an auto. 300 is too heavy, and it is too long but i was told that about 148 dewc in 9mm S&W547. be careful.
john traveler
Member
Another good reason not to try and "hotshot" an M1917 with 300 grain .45 ACP loads was posted in the 1899-1960 section. A shooter had the misfortune to split the cylinder of his Triplelock using a very mild .455 load.
Dale53
Member
I "rest my case"...
Dale53
Dale53
grendelbane
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For anyone wanting to use heavy bullets in .45 ACP wheelguns, I heartilly recommend the 275 grain truncated cone design available from Hunter's Supply, (I get mine from Midway).
It weighs an actual 273 grains. A lot of the weight is in the nose of the bullet, which leaves more room for powder in the case. Other bullets share this feature also.
Propelled by a suitable charge of Power Pistol, it gives good performance.
I have even fired it in Gov't models, by seating it just slightly deeper. It feeds well.
I would not, however, push the envelope in a 1917 model. These guns deserve an honorable semi-retirement, and IMO, should not be fed anything warmer than standard .45 ACP.
It weighs an actual 273 grains. A lot of the weight is in the nose of the bullet, which leaves more room for powder in the case. Other bullets share this feature also.
Propelled by a suitable charge of Power Pistol, it gives good performance.
I have even fired it in Gov't models, by seating it just slightly deeper. It feeds well.
I would not, however, push the envelope in a 1917 model. These guns deserve an honorable semi-retirement, and IMO, should not be fed anything warmer than standard .45 ACP.
